4 ms·

The breadth of bad takes about the situation is absolutely incredible. I'm currently on the ground in eastern europe, I speak a slavic language natively and can

The breadth of bad takes about the situation is absolutely incredible. I'm currently on the ground in eastern europe, I speak a slavic language natively and can communicate okay in a few others. Even in countries with a vivid memory of soviet occupation there are vocal supporters of broad concessions to russian aggression and even people who outright believe in russian propaganda. Several of my friends are housing Ukrainian refugees and are afraid to make it publicly known. A friend of mine was debating removing the Ukrainian flag on her profile for fear it would result in her children being bullied in school. It's fucking wild. THE FUCKING RUSSIANS WERE OCCUPYING YOU A COUPLE DECADES AGO, IT WAS NOT A GOOD TIME, HOW DO YOU NOT REMEMBER THIS?!?!?! fwiw I would say the plurality of people are in support of Ukraine but I never imagined there would so much visible support for russia, or even concessions to russian aggression. It's very disheartening to see any question about the validity of Ukrainian sovereignty.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago
It is very disheartening, indeed. I fear also that the almost universal emotional support that the Ukrainian people had from the average westerner is going to chip away as the actual cost of the war continues, and as the Russian propaganda machine keeps pumping. What happens after the US midterms in the fall? What happens when gas prices continue to be high? JFC being implicitly in favour of a powerful military occupying and bombing its weaker neighbour is not an edgy or contrarian or clever position. It's ethical bankruptcy.
thriftwy 4y ago
The "FUCKING" ukrainians were "OCCUPYING" them to the same degree as russians, since they were both a part of Soviet Union.
- dantyti 4y ago
  This comment is delusional and in no way represents the history of the Soviet Union, nor the sentiment towards Ukrainians in post-soviet countries.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    The history of Soviet Union is basically one Georgian followed by three Ukrainians.
    - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
      And not a single one of them were representative of their countrymen. Stalin in particular seemed to almost relish doing nasty things to his country of origin.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        Do you think any of them were representative of Russians? Communism is a totalitarian cult after all.
    - dantyti 4y ago
      And the Polish United Worker's Party in Poland were Poles. Does that make Poles hate other Poles? Or were you trying to make some sort of point about the differences in the repressive mechanisms or social constraints established under Khrushchev vs Brezhnev?
dantyti 4y ago
I'm in a post-sov country that is strongly supporting Ukraine publicly and where no one is fearing persecution or bullying for taking in refugees. Nevertheless, there are always (33 years and counting) vocal minority voices that parrot Russian narratives. I strongly believe there are several key factors to this: a similar cultural experience and societal identity for people over 50[1] and a strong influence stemming from the combination of only knowing Russian as their single foreign language and the prevalence of Russian TV channels in the 90s/00s as well as Russian YouTube channels more recently. The 90s were hard in post-soviet countries, many people got disillusioned, some never really got back on their feet. In terms of misremembering the occupation: cognitive biases and flaws[2], nostalgia, regressively conservative, hyper nationalistic, as well as anti-US/Western sentiments, etc. are all abused by Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories. Some narratives are really textbook political myths[3] about the Savior, the Golden Age (I guess the US got a real taste of this one with the MAGA movement). Much like a significant number of Trump supporters in the US, supporters or Russia in my country are more likely to believe in chemtrails, sovereign citizen claims, global pedophile conspiracies, anti-LGBTQ narratives, etc. 1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus 2- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect 3- http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pas/pas201201/pas2012-08.pdf http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pas/pas201201/pas2012-08.pdf
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  > In terms of misremembering the occupation By using the word „misremembering“ you only show the misunderstanding of real experiences of people which lived in that period. They may have experienced oppression, but it could be subtle and perceived very differently. Those people are not necessary living better now, often on the contrary. Transition to capitalism has left many behind, and being old, poor and misunderstood is certainly felt worse today than being young and not being able to buy American jeans back then. Calling it a false memory is intellectual snobbery.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

It is very disheartening, indeed. I fear also that the almost universal emotional support that the Ukrainian people had from the average westerner is going to chip away as the actual cost of the war continues, and as the Russian propaganda machine keeps pumping. What happens after the US midterms in the fall? What happens when gas prices continue to be high? JFC being implicitly in favour of a powerful military occupying and bombing its weaker neighbour is not an edgy or contrarian or clever position. It's ethical bankruptcy.

thriftwy 4y ago

The "FUCKING" ukrainians were "OCCUPYING" them to the same degree as russians, since they were both a part of Soviet Union.

dantyti 4y ago
This comment is delusional and in no way represents the history of the Soviet Union, nor the sentiment towards Ukrainians in post-soviet countries.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  The history of Soviet Union is basically one Georgian followed by three Ukrainians.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    And not a single one of them were representative of their countrymen. Stalin in particular seemed to almost relish doing nasty things to his country of origin.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      Do you think any of them were representative of Russians? Communism is a totalitarian cult after all.
  - dantyti 4y ago
    And the Polish United Worker's Party in Poland were Poles. Does that make Poles hate other Poles? Or were you trying to make some sort of point about the differences in the repressive mechanisms or social constraints established under Khrushchev vs Brezhnev?

dantyti 4y ago

I'm in a post-sov country that is strongly supporting Ukraine publicly and where no one is fearing persecution or bullying for taking in refugees. Nevertheless, there are always (33 years and counting) vocal minority voices that parrot Russian narratives. I strongly believe there are several key factors to this: a similar cultural experience and societal identity for people over 50[1] and a strong influence stemming from the combination of only knowing Russian as their single foreign language and the prevalence of Russian TV channels in the 90s/00s as well as Russian YouTube channels more recently. The 90s were hard in post-soviet countries, many people got disillusioned, some never really got back on their feet. In terms of misremembering the occupation: cognitive biases and flaws[2], nostalgia, regressively conservative, hyper nationalistic, as well as anti-US/Western sentiments, etc. are all abused by Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories. Some narratives are really textbook political myths[3] about the Savior, the Golden Age (I guess the US got a real taste of this one with the MAGA movement). Much like a significant number of Trump supporters in the US, supporters or Russia in my country are more likely to believe in chemtrails, sovereign citizen claims, global pedophile conspiracies, anti-LGBTQ narratives, etc. 1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus 2- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect 3- http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pas/pas201201/pas2012-08.pdf http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pas/pas201201/pas2012-08.pdf

ivan_gammel 4y ago
> In terms of misremembering the occupation By using the word „misremembering“ you only show the misunderstanding of real experiences of people which lived in that period. They may have experienced oppression, but it could be subtle and perceived very differently. Those people are not necessary living better now, often on the contrary. Transition to capitalism has left many behind, and being old, poor and misunderstood is certainly felt worse today than being young and not being able to buy American jeans back then. Calling it a false memory is intellectual snobbery.