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The European country where “replacement theory” reigns supreme

5 points by car_analogy 4y ago

nosianu 4y ago
I think what is missing from such articles is some larger context. The Hungarian fear has roots in history. I was born and raised in East Germany. As a child I went to Hungary three times, twice to some form of summer camp. Each time part of the program was tours to historic sites. Even back then Hungary placed significant importance on their centuries of struggle against the Ottoman empire, which even ruled part of Hungary from 1541 to 1699 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary). Us children were told a lot about those wars and show strongholds and sites of battle, it was clear this was important to Hungarian identity to have been a "front line country" in a generations-spanning war, defending more centrally located Europe against repeated attempts of invasion. Even when they were not themselves at war, they were always under threat. There was frequent Ottoman aggression in their neighborhood and they often got involved indirectly. You can think of it any way you want, and history never is justification, but it can help with an explanation of where some attitudes and ideas are coming from. By the way, from my childhood memories, Hungary was very modern even during cold war times - and, importantly, very much oriented towards the West, an anomaly in the Eastern Bloc. We teenagers went shopping for Western music cassettes and magazines with our limited funds when we were there. There is a reason why the process of East Germany falling apart accelerated towards its finale with East Germans leaving en masse via Hungary (https://www.rferl.org/a/hungary-1989-east-germany/30156892.html https://www.rferl.org/a/hungary-1989-east-germany/30156892.h...).
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  History or present aren’t rationales for racial violence, but let’s not pretend that demographic shifts don’t exist or that they are not impacted by policy. On the extremes, you can look at Chinese Tibet or Palestine. For less extreme examples, you can compare European countries that embrace or refuse immigration and refugees. The demographic composition of a country does change the norms and laws of the country. None of this justifies murder or racial abuse.
  - nosianu 4y ago
    Sometimes I really wonder why I even bother writing what I write, when sooo many replies completely ignore it and/or go off on some other idea not even bothering to even acknowledge mine. > let’s not pretend that demographic shifts don’t exist Who does??? What is this baseless insinuation? You create your own strawman to argue against, please don't do that. You don't even bother to explain why you suddenly come up with "demographic shift". Just another random thing. For another example, I wrote > history never is justification, but it can help with an explanation so what is your point? I repeat what I wrote, and, in addition, I strongly object to your simplistic buzzwords and fuzzy statements. For example, "you can compare European countries that embrace or refuse immigration and refugees." -- which countries do that so completely? What exactly is the difference? It takes some thorough investigation to say anything useful, you don't even try, not a single word, only innuendo as if you said something concrete and obvious. > None of this justifies murder or racial abuse. Hungary does murder??? Now I've about had enough of this kind of reply.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I didn't think I was arguing with you, as much as agreeing with your sentiment. Not everything is a debate. PS the strawman I mentioned was not yours, but in the linked article.

5 points by car_analogy 4y ago

I think what is missing from such articles is some larger context. The Hungarian fear has roots in history. I was born and raised in East Germany. As a child I went to Hungary three times, twice to some form of summer camp. Each time part of the program was tours to historic sites. Even back then Hungary placed significant importance on their centuries of struggle against the Ottoman empire, which even ruled part of Hungary from 1541 to 1699 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Hungary). Us children were told a lot about those wars and show strongholds and sites of battle, it was clear this was important to Hungarian identity to have been a "front line country" in a generations-spanning war, defending more centrally located Europe against repeated attempts of invasion. Even when they were not themselves at war, they were always under threat. There was frequent Ottoman aggression in their neighborhood and they often got involved indirectly. You can think of it any way you want, and history never is justification, but it can help with an explanation of where some attitudes and ideas are coming from. By the way, from my childhood memories, Hungary was very modern even during cold war times - and, importantly, very much oriented towards the West, an anomaly in the Eastern Bloc. We teenagers went shopping for Western music cassettes and magazines with our limited funds when we were there. There is a reason why the process of East Germany falling apart accelerated towards its finale with East Germans leaving en masse via Hungary (https://www.rferl.org/a/hungary-1989-east-germany/30156892.html https://www.rferl.org/a/hungary-1989-east-germany/30156892.h...).

s1artibartfast 4y ago
History or present aren’t rationales for racial violence, but let’s not pretend that demographic shifts don’t exist or that they are not impacted by policy. On the extremes, you can look at Chinese Tibet or Palestine. For less extreme examples, you can compare European countries that embrace or refuse immigration and refugees. The demographic composition of a country does change the norms and laws of the country. None of this justifies murder or racial abuse.
- nosianu 4y ago
  Sometimes I really wonder why I even bother writing what I write, when sooo many replies completely ignore it and/or go off on some other idea not even bothering to even acknowledge mine. > let’s not pretend that demographic shifts don’t exist Who does??? What is this baseless insinuation? You create your own strawman to argue against, please don't do that. You don't even bother to explain why you suddenly come up with "demographic shift". Just another random thing. For another example, I wrote > history never is justification, but it can help with an explanation so what is your point? I repeat what I wrote, and, in addition, I strongly object to your simplistic buzzwords and fuzzy statements. For example, "you can compare European countries that embrace or refuse immigration and refugees." -- which countries do that so completely? What exactly is the difference? It takes some thorough investigation to say anything useful, you don't even try, not a single word, only innuendo as if you said something concrete and obvious. > None of this justifies murder or racial abuse. Hungary does murder??? Now I've about had enough of this kind of reply.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I didn't think I was arguing with you, as much as agreeing with your sentiment. Not everything is a debate. PS the strawman I mentioned was not yours, but in the linked article.