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I'll add my own data point into the mix. I'm 49, have been married for 22 years, with kids who are either grown up, or well on their way. Throughout my life tho

I'll add my own data point into the mix. I'm 49, have been married for 22 years, with kids who are either grown up, or well on their way. Throughout my life though, I have been an absolute loner in spirit. I grew up quite isolated, in the UK countryside, and learned to amuse myself early on. My first love was computers, which luckily has served me fairly well, career-wise. I haven't had many girlfriends, and felt very aware of this lack. When I met my wife, I married her more rapidly than I should have, if I'm honest. I had no confidence in myself regarding my ability to form intimate attachments to women, and thought something like "well if I'm married, then that's that problem sorted!". Not so much. Still, we've persevered, and made it work for 22 years. But I will soon be 50, and have chosen to view this round number as significant. I would like to start living life as I would like it, both career and relationship wise, and am currently trying to plan out what shape that might take. The stories and information in the comments here, are truly fascinating to me, the breadth of ideas being mentioned are a real breath of fresh air, and a great example of what makes Hacker News great (in my view), so thank you everyone.

simonswords82 4y ago
Hi fellow UK person. Sounds like you're just about to make a relatively large (perhaps dramatic?) change to your home and work life. Some people would call that a mid-life crisis but I think it's people realising the shortness of life and making sure they don't waste whatever they have left of it. Hope whatever the outcome it's a net positive :)
- taylorius 4y ago
  Hey fellow UK person! I may be on the brink, as you say, about to jump - or I may just be all talk. I'm not sure myself, if I'm honest :-) Though I am sure that I definitely prefer solitude + a number of friends now and again, rather than one super intense soul-mate all the time. Thanks for the good wishes, and best of luck to you too!
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    If you can, I wonder if tried a period of separation, maybe 6 months? To test the waters. My gut instinct is you may find divorce is not what you wanted after all, just some time and space to realize that.
hevomad 4y ago
- RektBoy 4y ago
te 4y ago
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429941683362357250.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429941683362357250.html
ta44445 4y ago
This resonates a bit with me. I'm at an earlier point in life (25 now), so I realize giving advice may be naïve, but I feel inclined to share my experience so far still. I share the part of your story about liking computers and getting a wonderful career out of it - I currently work remotely in a low cost of living country making six USD figures, so I'm quite well into the 1% income bracket locally. Up until maybe a year or so ago, I'd been in 3 relationships, all multi-year, including a long distance one during university. It always felt that I had been missing out on the "single guy" part of life, and looking back now, my relationships weren't all that fulfilling; mostly they were probably a way to not be alone, although I still felt alone, and was ok with that. This past ~year I've been out casually with many women (maybe something like 15?) and... It's fun, but obviously it's not fulfilling other than for ego reasons. I think the main positive thing in it is that I know it's "just ok" and don't have to wonder about it; if I had committed early on this would likely be something that would always be on my mind. What if I was letting my best life go by? Well, I haven't found ultimate happiness, but I have found comfort in the fact that I looked for it at least, and won't regret not having done so. For me, casual relationships aren't really fulfilling, and committed ones aren't either. I've learned to be alone and even a bit alien from early on, and don't resent it.
- taylorius 4y ago
  Not at all naive, anyone might have a piece of the puzzle, no matter what their age is. It sounds to me like you've done a better job than I did, exploring relationships with women, and figuring out what works for you, so hats off! Tbh I wish I had've had access to the sort of information that's available online now, even just as a window into the breadth of people's views - they can redefine what is a "viable" viewpoint or lifestyle, and help a person find their way to a life that makes them happy.
- taylorius 4y ago
  BTW, I 100% sympathise with being alone and alien. Alien is an apt description, actually. I came to love the delicious distance, and feeling of otherness. It was a slightly depressive feeling, but very comforting. Not many people can appreciate that, I've found.
lr4444lr 4y ago
Strong predictors of good and bad marriage partners do exist, but I'd caution you against making yourself, wife, and children unhappy for thinking the grass will be greener by blowing up your marriage. Divorce courts have seen many a couple who thought they were star crossed lovers bitterly at one another's throats. Human beings all have flaws that become painfully apparent once you move in with them and thr "honeymoon" phase of the relationship is over. If your spouse supports you emotionally, respects you, and is dependable, you have something not so easy to come by. If your kids are grown, maybe you just need some time alone to get away? Talk to her about it.
- taylorius 4y ago
  Thank you for your advice, and I take your point about the divorce courts, but please don't think that we haven't talked. The opposite is very much the case.
- david38 4y ago
  Often it isn’t because the grass is greener somewhere else. There are cases where the grass looked green, but upon marriage, you discovered it false. Cheating, publicly showing off said cheating (yet hiding it from you), no respect, all manner of things can be uncovered. If the idea of a normal girl sounds like a step up, I wouldn’t sit tight.
ericmay 4y ago
Please talk to a therapist or counselor before making any decisions. It sounds like you need someone to help talk through emotions, your plans, your desires, etc, and a trained professional will be able to help here. It’s not a sign of weakness, and these people really can help you make great decisions and really iron out what it is that you want, what the costs are for different decisions, etc. and there isn’t much to lose, only more information and better decision making to be gained. Think of it like hiring a coach. Lebron James has a coach. Tia Toomey has a coach. The worlds most successful business leaders have coaches. It’s alright to hire one who can work with you on making your life better. Best of luck!
- taylorius 4y ago
  That's great advice - I had a therapist for a couple of years, but stopped during covid. I think I will try to find another though - 100% worth it, as you say.
  - jjfoooo6 4y ago
    Consider also a couples therapist, all the same rationale applies. In either case, read up on the process for finding one that works you (and maybe your partner). Make sure it's someone you respect. There's a wide variety in quality, and if it's someone who you do not take seriously it will not be a good use of time. Good luck
    - taylorius 4y ago
      Thank you very much for your replies to what I said - it's good advice, and I'm grateful you would take the time to offer it!
jes 4y ago
I am 62. About fifteen years ago I could have written almost exactly what you have written above. I blew up my long term marriage because of my fucked up thinking. It was a horrible mistake and one that I regret essentially every day. Of course, maybe it's all different for you. I mean that. I'm only suggesting something to check. Have a look at the material under "Nice Guy Syndrome" by Dr. Robert Glover. [1] Maybe get his audio book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and listen to it for a bit, and see how well it fits or does not fit your situation. [1] https://drglover.com https://drglover.com
- taylorius 4y ago
  I'm sure I fit that "Nice Guy Syndrome" profile to a considerable extent. I'll take a look at the audio book. Thanks a lot for the advice!
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  The flip side is that you know now that it was a mistake. Would you still be happy today if you hadn’t left, but without knowing it was the right choice? Happiness is a fickle thing.
  - goldenkey 4y ago
    Isn't this just gonna result in stories based on survivorship bias? Those who put it all on red and won, aren't going to have the same experience as those who lost.
dazc 4y ago
Be careful about what you are considering throwing away. I'm a bit older and when people ask me why I'm not married I reply simply that all the best women were snapped up in their 20's.
- starkd 4y ago
  I once heard someone put it, as to why he wasn't married, that he wants what he can't have, and he can have what he doesn't want.
jjfoooo6 4y ago
> I would like to start living life as I would like it, both career and relationship wise If you'd be comfortable sharing, why do you feel this is not something you can achieve with your partner?
- taylorius 4y ago
  Sure, I can share - and needless to say, the vast majority of the problem is on my side. My wife is indeed a great woman - very emotionally focussed though, in quite an intense way, and highly intelligent in an intuitive way. She's honest and loyal though, and good looking. A real catch, in other words. The problem that I bring, is that I don't really have a core personality (at least, not one that anyone sees - I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need extensive filtering before being presented to the world at large). So I run "sub programs" to talk to other people on a level that is suitable to get along with them. I think everyone does this to an extent - I certainly do anyway, I always have. So the problem comes, because my wife is an exceptional empath, with what seems to me like almost supernatural intuition. And she sees through my little constructs in a second, and demands they be pushed aside, in order to get to know the "real me" beneath. Trouble is there is no "real me", apart from the rather dark, turbulent thoughts that churn the waters of my inner life. Therein lies the problem, a perpetual game of hide and seek, and I find it rather wearing. (Largely my own problem though, as I said). Apologies if the above sounds a bit weird, or off-putting or whatever. Anyway - you did ask! :-)
  - jjfoooo6 4y ago
    I'm 35, am in therapy, just got out of a breakup, and have two good friends with a dads who divorced their moms at around your age. Since you've been receptive to my other comments I'll share a bit about how your comment strikes me. > I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need extensive filtering before being presented to the world at large This really sounds like a good thing to reality check with a therapist! Non-judgmental listening is a core piece of the service they provide. I've had similar feelings in the past. Having things you don't feel you can share will make you feel isolated. Saying these things out loud to someone in and of itself can be a load off. And I strongly suspect these things you're suppressing aren't as bad as you think. It's telling that your response has nothing bad to say about your wife. The issues you raised are really, really not going to be solved by leaving her. When I'm unhappy in a relationship being single feels like freedom. But a breakup is trauma. During mine I went through hell, my entire being was be screaming at me that I'd made the worst mistake of my life. The loneliness was profound. Self esteem plummeted. My ex-girlfriend went through hell too. As it happens, my breakup needed to happen - I want a family, my ex-gf could not commit to having one with me. I'm on the other side now and feel good about the decision. But I still miss her all the time. And this was a relationship of only a few years. Lastly, on my friends with dads who have divorced their mom in his 50's - this decision will permanently change your relationship with your children. One doesn't talk to his dad at all, the other tolerates but no longer respects his dad. Are those scenarios possible? Good luck. Maybe it is that you have to leave your wife. But do your due diligence that this is the case. It's a button you can't unpress.
denton-scratch 4y ago
/me 65, two kids, two grandkids, two marriages, each of about 15 years. Both times the wife divorced me, rather than vv. (and no doubt that says something about me). Both times the relationship was rocky, but I would have stuck it out were it not for being sued by my supposedly-trusted life partner. I haven't had many girlfriends either, but I haven't felt that as a "lack". I've never had many friends either - usually not more than three or four good friends at any time. I now live alone, and I don't see many people. I talk to my exes fairly regularly, and I'm on good terms with my kids - but they live faraway. I'm not "lonely", though, in the sense that being alone makes me sad or regretful. I'm fine with my own company. I like to crack jokes and talk politics, so I miss those occasions; I miss cuddling a warm woman; and I'd like to have someone living with me, to pick me up if I fall over, and to look after me if I get ill. But those things are basically transactional, not about loneliness; I could pay someone to provide those services. I'm not a "loner" - I like people, and people like me. I'm not shy. I think it's just that I find that cultivating casual friendships in the hope they might blossom is a lot of work, so I don't cultivate many. And the idea of having two girlfriend relationships at the same time - i.e. while one is ending and the other beginning - fills me with dread, and I've never done that. Like you, I've spent my career in IT. I've never made a good friend at work. I mean, I've made "friends" with people at work, and even brought them to my home and made dinner for them; but they were never good friends. I'm a bit idiosyncratic in my tastes, and many of my attitudes and opinions are quite leftfield. These work-friends were all very straight, by my standards. I've no objection to people being "normal" - by definition, the majority of people are - that's no obstacle to being friends, for me. But it may have been an obstacle for them.
- taylorius 4y ago
  It's very interesting what you say, how you miss certain aspects of companionship. Do you find the maintenance of friendships and of intimate relationships difficult in the same way? Personally I find almost no overlap between the two categories. I've actually found most of my most intense friendships via computers - though those are few, and to be honest I've mellowed in my middle age. I'm trying my hand at making friends through social activities more these days - I definitely enjoy conversing, and sharing a laugh with them.

simonswords82 4y ago

Hi fellow UK person. Sounds like you're just about to make a relatively large (perhaps dramatic?) change to your home and work life. Some people would call that a mid-life crisis but I think it's people realising the shortness of life and making sure they don't waste whatever they have left of it. Hope whatever the outcome it's a net positive :)

taylorius 4y ago
Hey fellow UK person! I may be on the brink, as you say, about to jump - or I may just be all talk. I'm not sure myself, if I'm honest :-) Though I am sure that I definitely prefer solitude + a number of friends now and again, rather than one super intense soul-mate all the time. Thanks for the good wishes, and best of luck to you too!
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  If you can, I wonder if tried a period of separation, maybe 6 months? To test the waters. My gut instinct is you may find divorce is not what you wanted after all, just some time and space to realize that.

hevomad 4y ago

RektBoy 4y ago

te 4y ago

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429941683362357250.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429941683362357250.html

ta44445 4y ago

This resonates a bit with me. I'm at an earlier point in life (25 now), so I realize giving advice may be naïve, but I feel inclined to share my experience so far still. I share the part of your story about liking computers and getting a wonderful career out of it - I currently work remotely in a low cost of living country making six USD figures, so I'm quite well into the 1% income bracket locally. Up until maybe a year or so ago, I'd been in 3 relationships, all multi-year, including a long distance one during university. It always felt that I had been missing out on the "single guy" part of life, and looking back now, my relationships weren't all that fulfilling; mostly they were probably a way to not be alone, although I still felt alone, and was ok with that. This past ~year I've been out casually with many women (maybe something like 15?) and... It's fun, but obviously it's not fulfilling other than for ego reasons. I think the main positive thing in it is that I know it's "just ok" and don't have to wonder about it; if I had committed early on this would likely be something that would always be on my mind. What if I was letting my best life go by? Well, I haven't found ultimate happiness, but I have found comfort in the fact that I looked for it at least, and won't regret not having done so. For me, casual relationships aren't really fulfilling, and committed ones aren't either. I've learned to be alone and even a bit alien from early on, and don't resent it.

taylorius 4y ago
Not at all naive, anyone might have a piece of the puzzle, no matter what their age is. It sounds to me like you've done a better job than I did, exploring relationships with women, and figuring out what works for you, so hats off! Tbh I wish I had've had access to the sort of information that's available online now, even just as a window into the breadth of people's views - they can redefine what is a "viable" viewpoint or lifestyle, and help a person find their way to a life that makes them happy.
taylorius 4y ago
BTW, I 100% sympathise with being alone and alien. Alien is an apt description, actually. I came to love the delicious distance, and feeling of otherness. It was a slightly depressive feeling, but very comforting. Not many people can appreciate that, I've found.

lr4444lr 4y ago

Strong predictors of good and bad marriage partners do exist, but I'd caution you against making yourself, wife, and children unhappy for thinking the grass will be greener by blowing up your marriage. Divorce courts have seen many a couple who thought they were star crossed lovers bitterly at one another's throats. Human beings all have flaws that become painfully apparent once you move in with them and thr "honeymoon" phase of the relationship is over. If your spouse supports you emotionally, respects you, and is dependable, you have something not so easy to come by. If your kids are grown, maybe you just need some time alone to get away? Talk to her about it.

taylorius 4y ago
Thank you for your advice, and I take your point about the divorce courts, but please don't think that we haven't talked. The opposite is very much the case.
david38 4y ago
Often it isn’t because the grass is greener somewhere else. There are cases where the grass looked green, but upon marriage, you discovered it false. Cheating, publicly showing off said cheating (yet hiding it from you), no respect, all manner of things can be uncovered. If the idea of a normal girl sounds like a step up, I wouldn’t sit tight.

ericmay 4y ago

Please talk to a therapist or counselor before making any decisions. It sounds like you need someone to help talk through emotions, your plans, your desires, etc, and a trained professional will be able to help here. It’s not a sign of weakness, and these people really can help you make great decisions and really iron out what it is that you want, what the costs are for different decisions, etc. and there isn’t much to lose, only more information and better decision making to be gained. Think of it like hiring a coach. Lebron James has a coach. Tia Toomey has a coach. The worlds most successful business leaders have coaches. It’s alright to hire one who can work with you on making your life better. Best of luck!

taylorius 4y ago
That's great advice - I had a therapist for a couple of years, but stopped during covid. I think I will try to find another though - 100% worth it, as you say.
- jjfoooo6 4y ago
  Consider also a couples therapist, all the same rationale applies. In either case, read up on the process for finding one that works you (and maybe your partner). Make sure it's someone you respect. There's a wide variety in quality, and if it's someone who you do not take seriously it will not be a good use of time. Good luck
  - taylorius 4y ago
    Thank you very much for your replies to what I said - it's good advice, and I'm grateful you would take the time to offer it!

jes 4y ago

I am 62. About fifteen years ago I could have written almost exactly what you have written above. I blew up my long term marriage because of my fucked up thinking. It was a horrible mistake and one that I regret essentially every day. Of course, maybe it's all different for you. I mean that. I'm only suggesting something to check. Have a look at the material under "Nice Guy Syndrome" by Dr. Robert Glover. [1] Maybe get his audio book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and listen to it for a bit, and see how well it fits or does not fit your situation. [1] https://drglover.com https://drglover.com

taylorius 4y ago
I'm sure I fit that "Nice Guy Syndrome" profile to a considerable extent. I'll take a look at the audio book. Thanks a lot for the advice!
sillysaurusx 4y ago
The flip side is that you know now that it was a mistake. Would you still be happy today if you hadn’t left, but without knowing it was the right choice? Happiness is a fickle thing.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  Isn't this just gonna result in stories based on survivorship bias? Those who put it all on red and won, aren't going to have the same experience as those who lost.

dazc 4y ago

Be careful about what you are considering throwing away. I'm a bit older and when people ask me why I'm not married I reply simply that all the best women were snapped up in their 20's.

starkd 4y ago
I once heard someone put it, as to why he wasn't married, that he wants what he can't have, and he can have what he doesn't want.

jjfoooo6 4y ago

> I would like to start living life as I would like it, both career and relationship wise If you'd be comfortable sharing, why do you feel this is not something you can achieve with your partner?

taylorius 4y ago
Sure, I can share - and needless to say, the vast majority of the problem is on my side. My wife is indeed a great woman - very emotionally focussed though, in quite an intense way, and highly intelligent in an intuitive way. She's honest and loyal though, and good looking. A real catch, in other words. The problem that I bring, is that I don't really have a core personality (at least, not one that anyone sees - I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need extensive filtering before being presented to the world at large). So I run "sub programs" to talk to other people on a level that is suitable to get along with them. I think everyone does this to an extent - I certainly do anyway, I always have. So the problem comes, because my wife is an exceptional empath, with what seems to me like almost supernatural intuition. And she sees through my little constructs in a second, and demands they be pushed aside, in order to get to know the "real me" beneath. Trouble is there is no "real me", apart from the rather dark, turbulent thoughts that churn the waters of my inner life. Therein lies the problem, a perpetual game of hide and seek, and I find it rather wearing. (Largely my own problem though, as I said). Apologies if the above sounds a bit weird, or off-putting or whatever. Anyway - you did ask! :-)
- jjfoooo6 4y ago
  I'm 35, am in therapy, just got out of a breakup, and have two good friends with a dads who divorced their moms at around your age. Since you've been receptive to my other comments I'll share a bit about how your comment strikes me. > I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need extensive filtering before being presented to the world at large This really sounds like a good thing to reality check with a therapist! Non-judgmental listening is a core piece of the service they provide. I've had similar feelings in the past. Having things you don't feel you can share will make you feel isolated. Saying these things out loud to someone in and of itself can be a load off. And I strongly suspect these things you're suppressing aren't as bad as you think. It's telling that your response has nothing bad to say about your wife. The issues you raised are really, really not going to be solved by leaving her. When I'm unhappy in a relationship being single feels like freedom. But a breakup is trauma. During mine I went through hell, my entire being was be screaming at me that I'd made the worst mistake of my life. The loneliness was profound. Self esteem plummeted. My ex-girlfriend went through hell too. As it happens, my breakup needed to happen - I want a family, my ex-gf could not commit to having one with me. I'm on the other side now and feel good about the decision. But I still miss her all the time. And this was a relationship of only a few years. Lastly, on my friends with dads who have divorced their mom in his 50's - this decision will permanently change your relationship with your children. One doesn't talk to his dad at all, the other tolerates but no longer respects his dad. Are those scenarios possible? Good luck. Maybe it is that you have to leave your wife. But do your due diligence that this is the case. It's a button you can't unpress.

denton-scratch 4y ago

/me 65, two kids, two grandkids, two marriages, each of about 15 years. Both times the wife divorced me, rather than vv. (and no doubt that says something about me). Both times the relationship was rocky, but I would have stuck it out were it not for being sued by my supposedly-trusted life partner. I haven't had many girlfriends either, but I haven't felt that as a "lack". I've never had many friends either - usually not more than three or four good friends at any time. I now live alone, and I don't see many people. I talk to my exes fairly regularly, and I'm on good terms with my kids - but they live faraway. I'm not "lonely", though, in the sense that being alone makes me sad or regretful. I'm fine with my own company. I like to crack jokes and talk politics, so I miss those occasions; I miss cuddling a warm woman; and I'd like to have someone living with me, to pick me up if I fall over, and to look after me if I get ill. But those things are basically transactional, not about loneliness; I could pay someone to provide those services. I'm not a "loner" - I like people, and people like me. I'm not shy. I think it's just that I find that cultivating casual friendships in the hope they might blossom is a lot of work, so I don't cultivate many. And the idea of having two girlfriend relationships at the same time - i.e. while one is ending and the other beginning - fills me with dread, and I've never done that. Like you, I've spent my career in IT. I've never made a good friend at work. I mean, I've made "friends" with people at work, and even brought them to my home and made dinner for them; but they were never good friends. I'm a bit idiosyncratic in my tastes, and many of my attitudes and opinions are quite leftfield. These work-friends were all very straight, by my standards. I've no objection to people being "normal" - by definition, the majority of people are - that's no obstacle to being friends, for me. But it may have been an obstacle for them.

taylorius 4y ago
It's very interesting what you say, how you miss certain aspects of companionship. Do you find the maintenance of friendships and of intimate relationships difficult in the same way? Personally I find almost no overlap between the two categories. I've actually found most of my most intense friendships via computers - though those are few, and to be honest I've mellowed in my middle age. I'm trying my hand at making friends through social activities more these days - I definitely enjoy conversing, and sharing a laugh with them.