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Loving families are easy to idealize from afar. How many families actually fit that profile? I’m not entirely sure. This is not a jaded attempt to say the pur

by qgin 4y ago

Loving families are easy to idealize from afar. How many families actually fit that profile? I’m not entirely sure. This is not a jaded attempt to say the pursuit of relationships or family aren’t worthwhile. I just want to set some context here for those feeling lonely, for those who feel like they are standing outside in the cold on the street looking through windows into warm living rooms full of people with warm feelings toward each other. I’m the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on speaking terms with either of my divorced parents. Both of my divorced parents consistently tell me they wish they could get away from their current spouses but feel it’s too late start over. Only one of my 3 siblings isn’t currently fantasizing of leaving their spouse. The mix of who in the extended family is currently speaking to whom is always in flux. Of my friends in very long term relationships that I know well enough to know if they are happy or not, about half are somewhere between resentful to outright miserable. My grandparents divorced when they were in their late 60s and went on to live much happier separate lives. In the hospital before my grandfather died, he insisted my grandmother should absolutely not visit him. Again, I am not saying seeking loving relationships and building a family isn’t an extremely worthwhile goal for everyone. Even given all I’ve said so far, I hope I can build one someday. It just bums me out to see people in threads like this idealizing what it means to find a partner, to have a family. It can be extremely good. It can also be extremely bad. Joining with others is not a magic spell that, on its own, fixes your life.

hemreldop 4y ago
didericis 4y ago
I know you said this, but I want to emphasize that relationship failures do not invalidate the value of that ideal. I struggle to think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from pursuing some kind of family, and I believe sacrificing that pursuit entirely is always a tragic mistake. Forming loving families is hard. You might not find the right people immediately, and some people are incredibly destructive towards each other. Everyone is not compatible with everyone else. And it is often less painful to live alone than to live with a destructive family. That means some families need to be dissolved and reconstituted, others need time to heal. For some people there is not enough time, understanding or strength to grow and form new bonds with others. That does not mean people should give up and live alone. Anyone who believes they will be happier alone is deluding themselves and/or too scared of the pain of rejection and heartbreak. It's worth it. https://youtu.be/bl5TUw7sUBs?t=60 https://youtu.be/bl5TUw7sUBs?t=60
- 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
  > I know you said this, but I want to emphasize that relationship failures do not invalidate the value of that ideal. I struggle to think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from pursuing some kind of family, and I believe sacrificing that pursuit entirely is always a tragic mistake. Two come to mind rather easily. 1) Someone that is going to commit suicide. Having a family that you actually care about would make killing yourself more complicated. Alone, someone alone could go through with the act without actually hurting anyone else. 2) Someone who's entirety of experiences with family have been... complicated. Just as a thought experiment; say someone raised raised a child by punching them hard enough to bruise or draw blood for every little slight, real or perceived. Then ensured that the child understood that they were being hit and injured out of love. How would that child would view family after enduring that when they become a young adult?
  - didericis 4y ago
    Both of those examples just point to the value of having true support from a larger community. If you see someone suicidal or who has never known true familial support, try to bring them in and teach them what a true and healthy family looks like. And if you ever find yourself in that position, you want try to crawl your way out and into better networks and a state of mind, as confusing and painful as that may be. Committing suicide alone or forever living without an understanding of true compassion are not good outcomes that should just be accepted.
    - 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
      I'm talking about an inevitable outcome of communities, being that there are going to be individuals that won't belong to any of them. In that case I'm saying that committing suicide alone is the best outcome out of a set of bad options, because at least there is no collateral damage.
      - didericis 4y ago
        I disagree with everything you said and find your outlook both sad and disgusting. We can make a space in the world for everyone, however small. People can find each other. Homeless drug addicts have friends. Lonely people can find communities. Circumstances are not static.
jakzurr 4y ago
I'm in my 60's. Wasn't going to retire yet, but covid changed my mind. It seemed easier & safer. (Finances not so easy, but oh well.) Parents gone a while now. Three siblings still living; all married; 2 nephews. Whole family seems a bit strange to me, but wouldn't trade them for anything. Maybe I'm the strange one. ;) Only a handful of real friends, maybe half are gone now, but got a couple new ones in their 30's. Only known a couple of women in my life, but I might try that again. Nothing seems so urgent any more. Been "mostly alone" all my life, only realized 10-20 years ago that I've never really felt "lonely". Seems like there's so many fun things to work on or play at, just a few people in your life can go a really long ways. Is my family ideal? Well, works for me. LOL, been lurking for years - I didn't really understand the article that well, but I enjoyed the comments so much I had to create an acct to say thanks HN.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Right, being alone is not the same as being lonely. I guess you realize that, but you did not explicitly state it. I keep hearing the Beatles song in my head now. Elenor Rigby.
  - jakzurr 4y ago
    OK, now that is it.
- didericis 4y ago
  I can’t help but notice how you talk about your family. I don’t think size, kids, proximity, or frequency of visits is universal; there’s going to be lots of differences between people. But I think everyone benefits from knowing there are at least a few people in the world that they care about and that care about them. I find some of the people in the comments that believe lots of people are destined to die alone, should commit suicide, or have AI companions instead pretty disturbing, frankly. I think trying to relate to others, even if only a few people, is a much better way to go about life that should be encouraged.
NalNezumi 4y ago
The WaitbutWhy (funny) post about "How to pick your life partner"[0] might be shedding a light to what you're trying to say/observe. The ladder analogy is the most apt one. Everyone single think they're at the bottom of the ladder looking up at "happy couples" but in reality they are in the middle of the ladder, with unhappy bickering couples below them. A lot of people with this attitude rushes in to relationships, drinking the coolaid, and people (kids) that have seen the parents/friends/siblings in their rushed relationships usually gets a more realistic view of it all [0]https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html
- RayVR 4y ago
  Reading that article, I can’t help but feel like this person had little to no experience in a real relationship. The best marriages I know of are nothing like the ideals they set out in part 2. There are plenty of books and podcasts exploring long lasting relationships. The qualities listed in part 2 miss the mark.
zelphirkalt 4y ago
It does not even need to be families. Even finding a suitable partner is hard. I have seen people being in relationships which sucked. They are having ahard time ending them, enduring the disaster. But at least it is not as much effort to leave a non-marriage relationship as a marriage, usually. I think it is worth trying to find a good partner, because if you find someone suitable, you will have struck gold. The statistics do not look too good though, at least from what I have observed.
dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
>How many families actually fit that profile? I’m not entirely sure. Not many. >I’m the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on speaking terms with either of my divorced parents. A large number of people (over 3/4 - perhaps close to 95 %) are dysfunctional or immature in a major way. The are pawns in the game of evolution. >Even given all I’ve said so far, I hope I can build one someday. It boils down to numbers really, so good luck. For functional people to bump into each other, it's is an needle in a haystack chance.
- b3morales 4y ago
  This seems like an odd statement, since "dysfunctional" can only be defined in contrast to the majority behavior. It's like the chestnut that 80% of drivers are above average.
  - dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
    I would have used the word "abnormal" if I were to be comparing it to be the majority. Of course the what is defined as dysfunctional would subjective. A bunch of males fighting/competing with each other to death might be heroic in the eyes of some and the behavior can be normal and can be indulged in by the majority, but in my view would be dysfunctional. Guess it a semantics thing?
JeremyNT 4y ago
Quoting Tolstoy may seem low effort, but it feels warranted here: "All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
- twelve40 4y ago
  I heard this phrase many times, but I really don't understand what it means. Aside from being stated in extremely dogmatic form - like a claim to the ultimate truth - what, exactly, do we learn from this statement? To me (aside from being probably just an incorrect artistic exaggeration), it sounds like something ridiculously trivial, like "all people live different lives, but everyone dies" (ok, so what?) or "we all like different foods but all of us have to breathe air" (truly a genius observation). Is there some deeper meaning to this that I'm missing?
  - ca98am79 4y ago
    When I first heard this quote it really resonated with me. I think what it means is that unhappy relationships usually take on specific forms, while happy relationship are more generalized.
    - JeremyNT 4y ago
      This is how I always understood it as well, with a bit of an added connotation that the supposed "happy family" doesn't even exist as such. We all can easily see our own particular versions of familial dysfunction, yet we can still look at "happy families" from the outside and assume that they have achieved some platonic ideal that our own family is incapable of. There isn't really a "happy family" in Ana Karenina, not as such anyway - there are many different characters struggling with their own stations in life in different ways, even being miserable once they seem to achieve their near term goals. Probably the closest you can get is Levin's self actualization at the end of the novel, but I personally take a pessimistic read on that too - we've seen him spend the entire book meandering and I have trouble reading it at face value that he's really done "settling" on his world view by the end.
  - deleted 4y ago

by qgin 4y ago

hemreldop 4y ago

didericis 4y ago

I know you said this, but I want to emphasize that relationship failures do not invalidate the value of that ideal. I struggle to think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from pursuing some kind of family, and I believe sacrificing that pursuit entirely is always a tragic mistake. Forming loving families is hard. You might not find the right people immediately, and some people are incredibly destructive towards each other. Everyone is not compatible with everyone else. And it is often less painful to live alone than to live with a destructive family. That means some families need to be dissolved and reconstituted, others need time to heal. For some people there is not enough time, understanding or strength to grow and form new bonds with others. That does not mean people should give up and live alone. Anyone who believes they will be happier alone is deluding themselves and/or too scared of the pain of rejection and heartbreak. It's worth it. https://youtu.be/bl5TUw7sUBs?t=60 https://youtu.be/bl5TUw7sUBs?t=60

9530jh9054ven 4y ago
> I know you said this, but I want to emphasize that relationship failures do not invalidate the value of that ideal. I struggle to think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from pursuing some kind of family, and I believe sacrificing that pursuit entirely is always a tragic mistake. Two come to mind rather easily. 1) Someone that is going to commit suicide. Having a family that you actually care about would make killing yourself more complicated. Alone, someone alone could go through with the act without actually hurting anyone else. 2) Someone who's entirety of experiences with family have been... complicated. Just as a thought experiment; say someone raised raised a child by punching them hard enough to bruise or draw blood for every little slight, real or perceived. Then ensured that the child understood that they were being hit and injured out of love. How would that child would view family after enduring that when they become a young adult?
- didericis 4y ago
  Both of those examples just point to the value of having true support from a larger community. If you see someone suicidal or who has never known true familial support, try to bring them in and teach them what a true and healthy family looks like. And if you ever find yourself in that position, you want try to crawl your way out and into better networks and a state of mind, as confusing and painful as that may be. Committing suicide alone or forever living without an understanding of true compassion are not good outcomes that should just be accepted.
  - 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
    I'm talking about an inevitable outcome of communities, being that there are going to be individuals that won't belong to any of them. In that case I'm saying that committing suicide alone is the best outcome out of a set of bad options, because at least there is no collateral damage.
    - didericis 4y ago
      I disagree with everything you said and find your outlook both sad and disgusting. We can make a space in the world for everyone, however small. People can find each other. Homeless drug addicts have friends. Lonely people can find communities. Circumstances are not static.

jakzurr 4y ago

I'm in my 60's. Wasn't going to retire yet, but covid changed my mind. It seemed easier & safer. (Finances not so easy, but oh well.) Parents gone a while now. Three siblings still living; all married; 2 nephews. Whole family seems a bit strange to me, but wouldn't trade them for anything. Maybe I'm the strange one. ;) Only a handful of real friends, maybe half are gone now, but got a couple new ones in their 30's. Only known a couple of women in my life, but I might try that again. Nothing seems so urgent any more. Been "mostly alone" all my life, only realized 10-20 years ago that I've never really felt "lonely". Seems like there's so many fun things to work on or play at, just a few people in your life can go a really long ways. Is my family ideal? Well, works for me. LOL, been lurking for years - I didn't really understand the article that well, but I enjoyed the comments so much I had to create an acct to say thanks HN.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Right, being alone is not the same as being lonely. I guess you realize that, but you did not explicitly state it. I keep hearing the Beatles song in my head now. Elenor Rigby.
- jakzurr 4y ago
  OK, now that is it.
didericis 4y ago
I can’t help but notice how you talk about your family. I don’t think size, kids, proximity, or frequency of visits is universal; there’s going to be lots of differences between people. But I think everyone benefits from knowing there are at least a few people in the world that they care about and that care about them. I find some of the people in the comments that believe lots of people are destined to die alone, should commit suicide, or have AI companions instead pretty disturbing, frankly. I think trying to relate to others, even if only a few people, is a much better way to go about life that should be encouraged.

NalNezumi 4y ago

The WaitbutWhy (funny) post about "How to pick your life partner"[0] might be shedding a light to what you're trying to say/observe. The ladder analogy is the most apt one. Everyone single think they're at the bottom of the ladder looking up at "happy couples" but in reality they are in the middle of the ladder, with unhappy bickering couples below them. A lot of people with this attitude rushes in to relationships, drinking the coolaid, and people (kids) that have seen the parents/friends/siblings in their rushed relationships usually gets a more realistic view of it all [0]https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html

RayVR 4y ago
Reading that article, I can’t help but feel like this person had little to no experience in a real relationship. The best marriages I know of are nothing like the ideals they set out in part 2. There are plenty of books and podcasts exploring long lasting relationships. The qualities listed in part 2 miss the mark.

zelphirkalt 4y ago

It does not even need to be families. Even finding a suitable partner is hard. I have seen people being in relationships which sucked. They are having ahard time ending them, enduring the disaster. But at least it is not as much effort to leave a non-marriage relationship as a marriage, usually. I think it is worth trying to find a good partner, because if you find someone suitable, you will have struck gold. The statistics do not look too good though, at least from what I have observed.

dennis_jeeves1 4y ago

>How many families actually fit that profile? I’m not entirely sure. Not many. >I’m the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on speaking terms with either of my divorced parents. A large number of people (over 3/4 - perhaps close to 95 %) are dysfunctional or immature in a major way. The are pawns in the game of evolution. >Even given all I’ve said so far, I hope I can build one someday. It boils down to numbers really, so good luck. For functional people to bump into each other, it's is an needle in a haystack chance.

b3morales 4y ago
This seems like an odd statement, since "dysfunctional" can only be defined in contrast to the majority behavior. It's like the chestnut that 80% of drivers are above average.
- dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
  I would have used the word "abnormal" if I were to be comparing it to be the majority. Of course the what is defined as dysfunctional would subjective. A bunch of males fighting/competing with each other to death might be heroic in the eyes of some and the behavior can be normal and can be indulged in by the majority, but in my view would be dysfunctional. Guess it a semantics thing?

JeremyNT 4y ago

Quoting Tolstoy may seem low effort, but it feels warranted here: "All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

twelve40 4y ago
I heard this phrase many times, but I really don't understand what it means. Aside from being stated in extremely dogmatic form - like a claim to the ultimate truth - what, exactly, do we learn from this statement? To me (aside from being probably just an incorrect artistic exaggeration), it sounds like something ridiculously trivial, like "all people live different lives, but everyone dies" (ok, so what?) or "we all like different foods but all of us have to breathe air" (truly a genius observation). Is there some deeper meaning to this that I'm missing?
- ca98am79 4y ago
  When I first heard this quote it really resonated with me. I think what it means is that unhappy relationships usually take on specific forms, while happy relationship are more generalized.
  - JeremyNT 4y ago
    This is how I always understood it as well, with a bit of an added connotation that the supposed "happy family" doesn't even exist as such. We all can easily see our own particular versions of familial dysfunction, yet we can still look at "happy families" from the outside and assume that they have achieved some platonic ideal that our own family is incapable of. There isn't really a "happy family" in Ana Karenina, not as such anyway - there are many different characters struggling with their own stations in life in different ways, even being miserable once they seem to achieve their near term goals. Probably the closest you can get is Levin's self actualization at the end of the novel, but I personally take a pessimistic read on that too - we've seen him spend the entire book meandering and I have trouble reading it at face value that he's really done "settling" on his world view by the end.
- deleted 4y ago