4 ms·

"aggressive racism wasn't really seen in the south before the Civil War" is absurd and only supportable if you don't consider the treatment of the slaves. There

"aggressive racism wasn't really seen in the south before the Civil War" is absurd and only supportable if you don't consider the treatment of the slaves. There was a ton of brutality, and you're sitting here saying there wasn't any aggression. It's not dissimilar to the US wars in the middle east: The North toppled an evil government, freed some people, but didn't finish the job. So assholes ended back up in charge. They couldn't go quite as far, or quite go all ISIS, they had to settle for just the KKK, because it was all one country again, but somehow the losers didn't lose all that much in the long run.

piethesailorman 4y ago
- tptacek 4y ago
  Nehemiah Adams? Really? Gross.
  - piethesailorman 4y ago
    - tptacek 4y ago
      "Seriously", "you're citing a 19th century weirdo against over a century of historical research on the treatment of slaves, virtually all of which repudiates that weirdo", comma, "gross". Further, "I'm not a proponent of slavery" is a sequence of words that loses a lot of its power when it follows a direct assertion that people may have been better off under slavery, as not only Nehemiah Adams believed, but you, from your own comment, also seem to as well? "Black slave families were closer and more stable(parental seperation rates) than they are now". Gross! The principle of charity is a thing, but there are limits to charity.
      - piethesailorman 4y ago
        So your big criticisim of Nehemiah is that he is 1. He is a weirdo? 2. I can list more names who think as I do than I can count to the contrary?
        tptacek 4y ago
        No, I think my criticism has more to do with the fact that Adams felt like the antebellum south was much to be admired for keeping its negroes off the street at night, much as advocates for the south apparently (here's those pesky historians again) were happy to point out the low rates of rape and sexual assault against white women in the south --- who, after all, would risk imprisonment assaulting a white woman, when there were so many Black slaves that could be raped without consequence. Family stability. Alabama forbade the sale of enslaved children without their mother --- until they reached 5 years of age. Nehemiah Adams? Really? Gross.
        piethesailorman 4y ago
        tptacek 4y ago
        It happened so often that Alabama had a law forbidding the sale of children before the age of 5.
        piethesailorman 4y ago
        Give me a literal number. It's a Class B misdemeanor to sell, barter, or offer the fur of a domestic dog or cat. Does that happen regularly? Your conflating that it happened. A law was put in the books. And so it must happen every day? Or maybe it happens enough to make you ucomfortable? I agreed that it happened. I nnever said that its not possible it happened multiple times. Your implicitly suggesting that this was a regular and normal occurance. Show me litteral numbers
- gragundier 4y ago
  The 1800s were brutal everywhere, but slavery is an inherently corrupt system. I can certainly imagine merciful white masters who genuinely cared for their slaves, but slavery is such a cut and dry obvious violation of human rights that it's not worth considering. A single person being considered, even in the most benign technical sense, property is an atrocity. We can and perhaps should commemorate those who worked very hard to salvage justice in an inherently just system, but we're still trying to wash the stains of racial injustice within our society today. Any time spent uplifting these persons must unfortunately be set aside to provide equity to those long ignored. All of that being said, I can't say for certain that you're being intellectually honest, you're conflating quite a few things with crucial nuance. As an example, you claim black slave families were closer and more stable, because they were penned in and forced to breed together to provide additional laborers who would replace them. Have you ever considered that divorced families are better off than unhappy marriages? Have you considered that perhaps marriages aren't entirely necessary, and modern black culture isn't well suited to traditional marriage norms codified by white JudeoChristian people? If you're heart is in the right place, I'd imagine you could tell us a story of a true ally to black slaves in the south. One whom was raised in a toxic racist environment, but learned to work within a inherently broken system to provide some sense of equity.
  - piethesailorman 4y ago
    I agree largely with your first paragraph! The world is a better place if people don't have total coercive power over others, self determination all the way!(obviously that statement lends to the subject and the great irony of the south). Long ignored.. the last 155 years is injustice made my the winners! Jim Crow laws were invented and wide spread in the north(1938 massachussets) before they went south. Oif you know anything about the old south, white families penned themselves to the land they were on and married those in litteral proximities. Your son was going to marry the neighbors daughter. Thats why they were so defensive of thier land. It had been held closely for generations. Your using modern stanards of moving around constatly and marrying based on 60's free love standards. This was also not too uncommon of a stance made by west africans in their bative lands. Thats why africa is dense of language families, territorial familial rule. The anglo/Irish(ulster etc..)were very similiar in that regard. A story? Lincoln married a prominent kentucky slave holding white woman and sold her slaves for profit. Robert E lee was the executor of his wifes estate, and followed her fathers bequeathing of his slaves freedoms.

piethesailorman 4y ago

tptacek 4y ago
Nehemiah Adams? Really? Gross.
- piethesailorman 4y ago
  - tptacek 4y ago
    "Seriously", "you're citing a 19th century weirdo against over a century of historical research on the treatment of slaves, virtually all of which repudiates that weirdo", comma, "gross". Further, "I'm not a proponent of slavery" is a sequence of words that loses a lot of its power when it follows a direct assertion that people may have been better off under slavery, as not only Nehemiah Adams believed, but you, from your own comment, also seem to as well? "Black slave families were closer and more stable(parental seperation rates) than they are now". Gross! The principle of charity is a thing, but there are limits to charity.
    - piethesailorman 4y ago
      So your big criticisim of Nehemiah is that he is 1. He is a weirdo? 2. I can list more names who think as I do than I can count to the contrary?
      - tptacek 4y ago
        No, I think my criticism has more to do with the fact that Adams felt like the antebellum south was much to be admired for keeping its negroes off the street at night, much as advocates for the south apparently (here's those pesky historians again) were happy to point out the low rates of rape and sexual assault against white women in the south --- who, after all, would risk imprisonment assaulting a white woman, when there were so many Black slaves that could be raped without consequence. Family stability. Alabama forbade the sale of enslaved children without their mother --- until they reached 5 years of age. Nehemiah Adams? Really? Gross.
        piethesailorman 4y ago
        tptacek 4y ago
        It happened so often that Alabama had a law forbidding the sale of children before the age of 5.
        piethesailorman 4y ago
        Give me a literal number. It's a Class B misdemeanor to sell, barter, or offer the fur of a domestic dog or cat. Does that happen regularly? Your conflating that it happened. A law was put in the books. And so it must happen every day? Or maybe it happens enough to make you ucomfortable? I agreed that it happened. I nnever said that its not possible it happened multiple times. Your implicitly suggesting that this was a regular and normal occurance. Show me litteral numbers
gragundier 4y ago
The 1800s were brutal everywhere, but slavery is an inherently corrupt system. I can certainly imagine merciful white masters who genuinely cared for their slaves, but slavery is such a cut and dry obvious violation of human rights that it's not worth considering. A single person being considered, even in the most benign technical sense, property is an atrocity. We can and perhaps should commemorate those who worked very hard to salvage justice in an inherently just system, but we're still trying to wash the stains of racial injustice within our society today. Any time spent uplifting these persons must unfortunately be set aside to provide equity to those long ignored. All of that being said, I can't say for certain that you're being intellectually honest, you're conflating quite a few things with crucial nuance. As an example, you claim black slave families were closer and more stable, because they were penned in and forced to breed together to provide additional laborers who would replace them. Have you ever considered that divorced families are better off than unhappy marriages? Have you considered that perhaps marriages aren't entirely necessary, and modern black culture isn't well suited to traditional marriage norms codified by white JudeoChristian people? If you're heart is in the right place, I'd imagine you could tell us a story of a true ally to black slaves in the south. One whom was raised in a toxic racist environment, but learned to work within a inherently broken system to provide some sense of equity.
- piethesailorman 4y ago
  I agree largely with your first paragraph! The world is a better place if people don't have total coercive power over others, self determination all the way!(obviously that statement lends to the subject and the great irony of the south). Long ignored.. the last 155 years is injustice made my the winners! Jim Crow laws were invented and wide spread in the north(1938 massachussets) before they went south. Oif you know anything about the old south, white families penned themselves to the land they were on and married those in litteral proximities. Your son was going to marry the neighbors daughter. Thats why they were so defensive of thier land. It had been held closely for generations. Your using modern stanards of moving around constatly and marrying based on 60's free love standards. This was also not too uncommon of a stance made by west africans in their bative lands. Thats why africa is dense of language families, territorial familial rule. The anglo/Irish(ulster etc..)were very similiar in that regard. A story? Lincoln married a prominent kentucky slave holding white woman and sold her slaves for profit. Robert E lee was the executor of his wifes estate, and followed her fathers bequeathing of his slaves freedoms.