4 ms·

I grew up on Pokemon & MTG. Got competitive, made the Tour, etc. I am not sure I want to repeat this with my son. A friend is going through this with his child

I grew up on Pokemon & MTG. Got competitive, made the Tour, etc. I am not sure I want to repeat this with my son. A friend is going through this with his child (<10); can they afford the packs? The cards? What about his son asking everyone for free cards, since they didn't want to start down that path? There's gambling in these games, and a lot of it is in how exactly you get those cards. The upside is that a healthy exposure to "work doesn't equal outcome", risk calcs, and reading people are very helpful lessons to learn, so personally I'm a bit torn on this. I wonder if there isn't a happy middle ground these days that doesn't require a "buy packs" element.

dragontamer 4y ago
Pokemon the video game, not the TCG. The video game requires no money aside from the cartridge, and the strategy is surprisingly deep: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-metagame-discussion-thread-v7-usage-stats-in-post-3539.3672210/ https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-metagame-discuss... Magic is the superior TCG in my opinion, thou Pokemon TCG is fun. In any case, don't play the 'pay to win' formats. Instead, play draft or sealed, which are much more fair.
- jpe90 4y ago
  It can be a good way to spark interest in programming as well! :) https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/569688211158511616?lang=en https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/569688211158511616?... (definitely stealing this technique, we'll see if it pays off in... nine years or so?)
- mattnewton 4y ago
  Or use proxies. Cockatrice is a good client for MTG as well, it doesn't enforce the rules but provides everything you need to play online with friends.
- xmprt 4y ago
  And if you want to play Showdown, you don't even need to pay for cartridges either. Plus there's no grinding for EVs, IVs, moves, and items.
- vjerancrnjak 4y ago
  Hmm, interesting, I went through the guides and I have no idea what this game is about. Is it just regular Pokemon game but somehow you play against others online?
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Yes
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    You choose a team of 6 Pokemon out of 898, each Pokemon chooses 4 moved out of thousands. Each Pokemon has 2 or 3 abilities to choose from depending on how you breed them. Both players take turns simultaneously choosing attacks until they KO all opponent pokemon
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Pokémon gameplay can be deep but it’s pretty impenetrable for a kid just playing the game on his own. Most kids will just use the biggest attack moves, and that’s absolutely fine for the difficulty of the single player story made last I checked. I wouldn’t really want kids getting deep into an online community meta personally.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    Even if the kids are just using the highest-attack moves and switching pokemon, that's still a deep game. That's the basics of "Pivoting" and "damage sponging". Many pokemon have self-recovery moves (slack off, recover, etc. etc.). Even when I was 10, I knew that if my sponge took a hit, and recovered the damage faster than my opponent could deal damage, I'd force them to switch. Set-up sweepers, hazards, status effects and ability combos get complicated for sure. Taunt vs Substitute, Prankster vs Dark, there's too much to memorize here. But kids don't need to reach that level to still have the importance of bluffing, reading, and predicting.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Seems like a pretty low bar tbh
distortedsignal 4y ago
One way to do this (at least in MtG) is to play “cheap” formats: only use so-called “common” cards (examples: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pauper#paper https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pauper#paper). Only use a certain set or a number of sets. In DnD, there’s the concept of “session 0” where the players determine how they’re going to play the game - it helps for players in card games to have a similar rules for power level and expectation. And it’s pretty well known in the card game community that if you’re looking for cards, you should NEVER buy packs. Buy your singles, and save your money.
awild 4y ago
I've recently got back into Card games after growing up on mtg, and there is a whole bunch of games where you don't buy random boosters but whole expansions. Netrunner/nisei being an example. They seem to still work with fomo, but you don't have to invest past a certain point to get actually creative/expressive play and deckbuilding.
thatguy0900 4y ago
If you have a local scene, ive really been enjoying keyforged. Each "pack" is a unique standalone deck. I dont have that crushing need to keep buying hundred doar cards like I did when I used to play yugioh
lozenge 4y ago
Star Realms is a simple game with everything needed included and is quick to pick up. Dominion has more depth and variety. Epic Card Game comes close to the complexity of Magic. The issue is most people willing to learn such a game will already be playing Magic or Pokemon... There's more popular/newer alternatives, I haven't been following the scene.
theptip 4y ago
MTG:Arena can be payed F2P and is much cheaper to buy a top tier deck due to having wildcards. I highly recommend it. (It’s a different experience to playing for fun with friends at the kitchen table, more focused on “the serious/meta game”). Also you can do drafts really easily and cheaply, which gets you into the really layered EV/Sklansky-bucks territory.

dragontamer 4y ago

Pokemon the video game, not the TCG. The video game requires no money aside from the cartridge, and the strategy is surprisingly deep: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-metagame-discussion-thread-v7-usage-stats-in-post-3539.3672210/ https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-metagame-discuss... Magic is the superior TCG in my opinion, thou Pokemon TCG is fun. In any case, don't play the 'pay to win' formats. Instead, play draft or sealed, which are much more fair.

jpe90 4y ago
It can be a good way to spark interest in programming as well! :) https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/569688211158511616?lang=en https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/569688211158511616?... (definitely stealing this technique, we'll see if it pays off in... nine years or so?)
mattnewton 4y ago
Or use proxies. Cockatrice is a good client for MTG as well, it doesn't enforce the rules but provides everything you need to play online with friends.
xmprt 4y ago
And if you want to play Showdown, you don't even need to pay for cartridges either. Plus there's no grinding for EVs, IVs, moves, and items.
vjerancrnjak 4y ago
Hmm, interesting, I went through the guides and I have no idea what this game is about. Is it just regular Pokemon game but somehow you play against others online?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Yes
- dragontamer 4y ago
  You choose a team of 6 Pokemon out of 898, each Pokemon chooses 4 moved out of thousands. Each Pokemon has 2 or 3 abilities to choose from depending on how you breed them. Both players take turns simultaneously choosing attacks until they KO all opponent pokemon
oneoff786 4y ago
Pokémon gameplay can be deep but it’s pretty impenetrable for a kid just playing the game on his own. Most kids will just use the biggest attack moves, and that’s absolutely fine for the difficulty of the single player story made last I checked. I wouldn’t really want kids getting deep into an online community meta personally.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  Even if the kids are just using the highest-attack moves and switching pokemon, that's still a deep game. That's the basics of "Pivoting" and "damage sponging". Many pokemon have self-recovery moves (slack off, recover, etc. etc.). Even when I was 10, I knew that if my sponge took a hit, and recovered the damage faster than my opponent could deal damage, I'd force them to switch. Set-up sweepers, hazards, status effects and ability combos get complicated for sure. Taunt vs Substitute, Prankster vs Dark, there's too much to memorize here. But kids don't need to reach that level to still have the importance of bluffing, reading, and predicting.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Seems like a pretty low bar tbh

distortedsignal 4y ago

One way to do this (at least in MtG) is to play “cheap” formats: only use so-called “common” cards (examples: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pauper#paper https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pauper#paper). Only use a certain set or a number of sets. In DnD, there’s the concept of “session 0” where the players determine how they’re going to play the game - it helps for players in card games to have a similar rules for power level and expectation. And it’s pretty well known in the card game community that if you’re looking for cards, you should NEVER buy packs. Buy your singles, and save your money.

awild 4y ago

I've recently got back into Card games after growing up on mtg, and there is a whole bunch of games where you don't buy random boosters but whole expansions. Netrunner/nisei being an example. They seem to still work with fomo, but you don't have to invest past a certain point to get actually creative/expressive play and deckbuilding.

thatguy0900 4y ago

If you have a local scene, ive really been enjoying keyforged. Each "pack" is a unique standalone deck. I dont have that crushing need to keep buying hundred doar cards like I did when I used to play yugioh

lozenge 4y ago

Star Realms is a simple game with everything needed included and is quick to pick up. Dominion has more depth and variety. Epic Card Game comes close to the complexity of Magic. The issue is most people willing to learn such a game will already be playing Magic or Pokemon... There's more popular/newer alternatives, I haven't been following the scene.

theptip 4y ago

MTG:Arena can be payed F2P and is much cheaper to buy a top tier deck due to having wildcards. I highly recommend it. (It’s a different experience to playing for fun with friends at the kitchen table, more focused on “the serious/meta game”). Also you can do drafts really easily and cheaply, which gets you into the really layered EV/Sklansky-bucks territory.