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The entitlement? Humans should be entitled to a life free of material suffering. Otherwise what is the point of creating governments and corporations if not to

The entitlement? Humans should be entitled to a life free of material suffering. Otherwise what is the point of creating governments and corporations if not to improve our quality of life. If you think the most vulnerable in society wanting help is entitlement then I suggest you stop using roads or visiting hospitals.

djbebs 4y ago
No, they should not.
lazide 4y ago
Roads and hospitals are paid for by taxes, usually paid by the people using them. Which equates to labor done by a great many people over time. How ‘free from material suffering’ entitlement going to be paid for, and what does that even mean? Houses for everyone? Gold bars for everyone?
- paulmd 4y ago
  Is this the “poor people aren’t poor because they have refrigerators” 2.0 argument? Living standards can and will change over time. It’s not possible to live without a phone and internet access anymore, you can’t even do a lot of these papers and applications for government functions (let alone private employment) anymore unless you’re online. Our grandchildren won’t be able to live without their neurallink even though it was a “luxury” to us.
  - lazide 4y ago
    I’m 1) asking what that even means, practically, and 2) how it could be accomplished using any known economic means without, say, hyper-inflating everything first to the point we’d never get there. Does it mean a free Harvard education to everyone? Or a free Twinkie? Does it mean a free house 5 minutes from downtown SF? Or free drugs to make everyone happy no matter where they are?
    - softcactus 4y ago
      What it means practically is the basics like food, shelter, and healthcare. Beyond those basic needs, free education and basic financial security (no means testing or savings limit like for the example in the original post) The argument against this is that people will say "well what about internet access, is internet access a human right since it's now ubiquitous? What about refrigerators and microwaves?" The answer is yes. As the standard of living rises for the average person through innovation, it should also rise for the lowest in society.
      - lazide 4y ago
        You’re about to see a recession up close, I’m curious to see your perspective after that.
        softcactus 4y ago
        I would just like to point out that a recession is a prime example of why most of our current "scarcity" is artificial. In a recession workers are still present and physical capital is still present. The raw materials are still present and the mechanisms of government are still present. The problems lie with the financial system that facilitates exchange. A recession is not caused by "not enough resources" it's the aftermath of people taking too many risks with fake paper money. It's a non-sequitur to imply that a recession means that the government cant take care of its citizens.
        lazide 4y ago
        Since expansion (often into areas that don’t work) and corresponding contractions (when that which doesn’t work is found and then stops as it becomes unsustainable) happens in every system humans have ever tried that I’m aware of, what do you think is the alternative?
        softcactus 4y ago
        I don't think there is an alternative to free markets, but I do believe that we can use the power of government to set price floors. For example let's say the government provides free housing for all citizens regardless of means testing. It doesn't have to be great housing, but it establishes a price floor that all landlords have to compete with by offering better housing or lowering their rents. No fear of homelessness, starvation, or death by uninsured illness also establishes a labor floor. People can take more time for a job search, or quit jobs that are exploitative/pay poorly. The government doesn't have to mandate a minimum wage, since jobs now must offer something more than a day-to-day subsistence. With advances in productivity we are more than capable of doing this but we allocate capital to other things in pursuit of profit. Think of how much capital was poured into web3 speculation that could have been used to actually establish a price floor for housing or a wage floor for labor.
- klyrs 4y ago
  > Roads and hospitals are paid for by taxes, usually paid by the people using them. Hospitals will treat people in the emergency room and ICU, whether or not they can pay. That ends up being way more expensive, to the precious taxpayer, than keeping folks out of the hospital in the first place. Penny wise, pound foolish.

djbebs 4y ago

No, they should not.

lazide 4y ago

Roads and hospitals are paid for by taxes, usually paid by the people using them. Which equates to labor done by a great many people over time. How ‘free from material suffering’ entitlement going to be paid for, and what does that even mean? Houses for everyone? Gold bars for everyone?

paulmd 4y ago
Is this the “poor people aren’t poor because they have refrigerators” 2.0 argument? Living standards can and will change over time. It’s not possible to live without a phone and internet access anymore, you can’t even do a lot of these papers and applications for government functions (let alone private employment) anymore unless you’re online. Our grandchildren won’t be able to live without their neurallink even though it was a “luxury” to us.
- lazide 4y ago
  I’m 1) asking what that even means, practically, and 2) how it could be accomplished using any known economic means without, say, hyper-inflating everything first to the point we’d never get there. Does it mean a free Harvard education to everyone? Or a free Twinkie? Does it mean a free house 5 minutes from downtown SF? Or free drugs to make everyone happy no matter where they are?
  - softcactus 4y ago
    What it means practically is the basics like food, shelter, and healthcare. Beyond those basic needs, free education and basic financial security (no means testing or savings limit like for the example in the original post) The argument against this is that people will say "well what about internet access, is internet access a human right since it's now ubiquitous? What about refrigerators and microwaves?" The answer is yes. As the standard of living rises for the average person through innovation, it should also rise for the lowest in society.
    - lazide 4y ago
      You’re about to see a recession up close, I’m curious to see your perspective after that.
      - softcactus 4y ago
        I would just like to point out that a recession is a prime example of why most of our current "scarcity" is artificial. In a recession workers are still present and physical capital is still present. The raw materials are still present and the mechanisms of government are still present. The problems lie with the financial system that facilitates exchange. A recession is not caused by "not enough resources" it's the aftermath of people taking too many risks with fake paper money. It's a non-sequitur to imply that a recession means that the government cant take care of its citizens.
        lazide 4y ago
        Since expansion (often into areas that don’t work) and corresponding contractions (when that which doesn’t work is found and then stops as it becomes unsustainable) happens in every system humans have ever tried that I’m aware of, what do you think is the alternative?
        softcactus 4y ago
        I don't think there is an alternative to free markets, but I do believe that we can use the power of government to set price floors. For example let's say the government provides free housing for all citizens regardless of means testing. It doesn't have to be great housing, but it establishes a price floor that all landlords have to compete with by offering better housing or lowering their rents. No fear of homelessness, starvation, or death by uninsured illness also establishes a labor floor. People can take more time for a job search, or quit jobs that are exploitative/pay poorly. The government doesn't have to mandate a minimum wage, since jobs now must offer something more than a day-to-day subsistence. With advances in productivity we are more than capable of doing this but we allocate capital to other things in pursuit of profit. Think of how much capital was poured into web3 speculation that could have been used to actually establish a price floor for housing or a wage floor for labor.
klyrs 4y ago
> Roads and hospitals are paid for by taxes, usually paid by the people using them. Hospitals will treat people in the emergency room and ICU, whether or not they can pay. That ends up being way more expensive, to the precious taxpayer, than keeping folks out of the hospital in the first place. Penny wise, pound foolish.