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My advice? Same as ever. Suck it up. Do it - it's hardly the worst part of the job and not doing it will mean you make less money. You're very unlikely reaching

My advice? Same as ever. Suck it up. Do it - it's hardly the worst part of the job and not doing it will mean you make less money. You're very unlikely reaching $500k+/yr by avoiding LC compared to how trivial it is to reach once you accept it. If you think leetcode is the worst part of being in this workforce - you live one incredibly privileged life. Wait until you have to deal with toxic management that exists in virtually every company and in virtually every leadership position. Wait until you have to deal with people who have a personal vendetta against you because of prejudice and will block any achievements you can make at a company. Are you excited for stack ranking? It exists at nearly every company and if it doesn't explicitly - it happens mentally. Are you excited to see incredibly huge churn in your industry? Are you excited to see the best and brightest constantly shutdown due to favoritism (and you will likely not be in that in-group)? Are you excited to watch people over the years lose all their hope and become soulless corporate ghouls who become the shill LinkedIn promoters that they themselves condemned a few years previously? Are you excited to work 60+ hour weeks to get PIP'd because that's just the way it is? (It will happen) Are you excited to put nights and weekends in at startups to see a round where the execs lose no value but your stock sees 3x+ dilution and no increase in value? These are common problems at companies within SV. Leetcode is hardly a problem when you see how fucking terrible the rest is.

depr 4y ago
So why are you in this industry?
- bradlys 4y ago
  Money. Compared to other industries - it’s much easier to make $500k/yr or more. I’ve had jobs where I was at $1m+. This would never happen in other industries unless I had X prestigious university on my resume or was married to the boss’ daughter. I could’ve been a surgeon, a lawyer, etc. but most of those have even worse hours, more time in college (debt+non-earning-years), and tend to not favor my background. (Poor rural upbringing) I’m already an outcast in tech in SV - I’ve come from the smallest town, least educated, and poorest family of anyone I’ve met here under 35.
  - lupire 4y ago
    I would love to be an outcast at work for $1m/yr.
    - bradlys 4y ago
      It sounds better on paper than in reality. I quit that job and took one for a massive paycut. I ended up getting divorced partially due to this job. Is it worth losing your marriage over? YMMV.
    - curiousDog 4y ago
      We have some that make way more than that in my FAANG company
  - junon 4y ago
    Jobs as a software engineer at 1m/year? Sorry, I simply don't believe you.
    - bradlys 4y ago
      Stock appreciation is a hell of a drug. I have worked with multiple engineers making multiple millions a year. They were all ICs. To break into the 1% in SV - you need to make $3.6mil/yr. Just let that sink in. It's a very rich place.
      - junon 4y ago
        I didn't get that stock was part of that equation. I took it as base salary. SV is an outlier, really wish people would stop talking as though that's a universal amount, and that if you don't make that amount then you're not senior. I lived in SV and it's a disgustingly money-oriented culture.
    - runako 4y ago
      You need to speak to more senior people who work at companies that make their money selling software or Internet services. ("Senior" is not 5 years of experience. Think engineers in their 30s & 40s.)
- korijn 4y ago
  I don't think they said they currently are. I hope for their sake they moved on because it doesn't sound like they had a particularly great time. On topic: there are plenty of great employers in our industry but you will have to make an effort to find them. And of course it's never going to be perfect. Maybe this is an odd proposition, but if you can't find no-whiteboard employers in SV, why don't you go looking elsewhere?
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  It's still paying the bills and 80% of these problems aren't industry-exclusive?
  - bradlys 4y ago
    I agree. A lot of these are not industry exclusive to tech/SV. However, we take it a bit further at times and more importantly we advertise that we're different. We like to think we're different. Other industries don't try to act like they're different. You go into law, biz, med, etc... You know what you're signing up for. You need to be a little brown nosing subservient ass hat - and everyone knows it. And everyone knows when you get to the top - you get to subject everyone everyone else to your whims, your hazing rituals, and so forth. They know that's the reward for getting to the top. Boss says you do X even if it's unethical to ask - in other industries you do it anyway. In SV, we act like it's okay for you to question it even if your boss will still fire you for insubordination. The difference is subtle but it's that SV at least tries to act like it's different even if they're not. That's what rubs me wrong about this industry the most. The virtue signaling without any real actions behind it. It is truly ghoulish.
0x20cowboy 4y ago
> These are common problems at companies within SV. Leetcode is hardly a problem when you see how fucking terrible the rest is. Am I understanding this logic? Are you saying let’s keep terrible, arguably pointless interview processes and needless gate keeping because there are other bad things in this world?
- bradlys 4y ago
  No, I’m saying there are bigger fish to fry. LC is easy compared to this other shit. LC makes your job search terrible. The work culture makes your life terrible.
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    Cultures that accept LC are more likely to make your life terrible. I work for a company that pays well and doesn’t do LC because of all the obvious reasons, and that is a representation of the culture.
    - bradlys 4y ago
      $400k+/yr well for senior eng or “I think it’s enough”?
- knorker 4y ago
  Sometimes you have to do the stupid thing because the boss or the client tells you to. Some of those times you get to say "I told you so", later. But the reason you get paid is because someone wants to pay you to do it. You can try to convince them to do it right, but in the end it's their money. Do you want it? When you have the control you can try to make the better hiring system, but since you're asking i assume you're not in a position to dump your balls on the table and say you won't play their game, but they should still hire you. It's a gamble to as your first impression show that you're not a team player.
- mountainriver 4y ago
  Exactly, yeah let’s all keep going along with this nonsense cause ya know?
ethanwillis 4y ago
Sorry, but no. I refuse. The industry can continue to pump out subpar solutions with their toxic culture until the VC money dries up. Out of principle I will not memorize your LC problems. I won't deny it's a great filter for getting the exact type of people that will tolerate, enable, and expand this culture.
- boredtofears 4y ago
  When the VC money dries up I expect things to get worse, not better for candidates.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  Which is fine! Nobody has to do LC and nobody has to apply to companies that use LC interviews. The reality is that when most people sit down and think about the math behind the finances, avoiding LC on principle comes with a massive opportunity cost that can exceed millions of dollars over the span of a career. Which again, totally fine if that's not your thing, but we should still let people know what's at stake.
  - netizen-936824 4y ago
    The reality is that's only from one super limited perspective and fails to consider the ideals of the applicant and how they think companies should operate ethically. Becoming wealthy isn't the only thing in life, this includes considering which companies you're willing to work for based on how they operate and what they do. If we constantly have people buying into a damaging system just for the money, it compounds issues and they get worse down the road
  - ethanwillis 4y ago
    I agree, it is fine if people choose to do this! It doesn't change my perspective on it however. There is definitely an opportunity cost. However, not in all cases. A single developer who is talented can take a variety of paths outside of this system to make significant or more money. I'm going to get ahead of the idea of the risk of stability and the implication I'm saying a software developer would be banking on risk/reward of a technology startup. I'd like to say that they can also use all the skills and knowledge of a software developer in a non-tech company with great success and similar or higher compensation with similar risk profiles.
curiousDog 4y ago
Very well said. To the OP: if you really are a good programmer, then mastering LC is just a matter of time and effort and really, the problems aren't that hard. You're also hired at most companies to solve problems; not just be a code monkey. It's a matter of interest and motivation not whether you're good at LC or not. LC is the best proxy we have for aptitude and general problem solving ability at this time. So best to suck it up and grind.
- boredtofears 4y ago
  Grinding LC is the definition of being a code monkey.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> You're very unlikely reaching $500k+/yr by avoiding LC compared to how trivial it is to reach once you accept it. I wouldn't say it's "trivial". It may feel that way once you've made it and been promoted up the ranks, but outside of that bubble I see a lot of people who have failed out of multiple attempts at FAANG interviews (despite practicing LC), burned out of FAANG jobs after a couple years, moved away from cities with those salaries (not every place offers remote work), or simply been unable to get through the promotion process to reach the upper ranks. Don't get me wrong: Practicing LC and grinding at FAANG is a remarkably easy way to reach $500K/yr salary compared to other options, but we need to stop pretending like it's automatic or easy. It's still hard and requires some degree of sacrifice/luck/location to get there.
- bradlys 4y ago
  In no way am I saying it's easy. I'm saying it's trivial compared to other options. Other options are basically fucking impossible. At least with FAANG and staff roles - there's a chance. Even if it might be this meme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGdhc9k07Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGdhc9k07Ms
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  > requires some degree of sacrifice/luck/location to get there. Bingo. You can answer everything perfectly and still not get it depending on interviewer or other applicants.
dhanna 4y ago
My problem is that I hate leetcode and I’m also burnt out from all the nonsense you mentioned
angarg12 4y ago
In the big scheme of things, there are worse things that grinding leetcode in order to land a 6 figure job.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

depr 4y ago

So why are you in this industry?

bradlys 4y ago
Money. Compared to other industries - it’s much easier to make $500k/yr or more. I’ve had jobs where I was at $1m+. This would never happen in other industries unless I had X prestigious university on my resume or was married to the boss’ daughter. I could’ve been a surgeon, a lawyer, etc. but most of those have even worse hours, more time in college (debt+non-earning-years), and tend to not favor my background. (Poor rural upbringing) I’m already an outcast in tech in SV - I’ve come from the smallest town, least educated, and poorest family of anyone I’ve met here under 35.
- lupire 4y ago
  I would love to be an outcast at work for $1m/yr.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    It sounds better on paper than in reality. I quit that job and took one for a massive paycut. I ended up getting divorced partially due to this job. Is it worth losing your marriage over? YMMV.
  - curiousDog 4y ago
    We have some that make way more than that in my FAANG company
- junon 4y ago
  Jobs as a software engineer at 1m/year? Sorry, I simply don't believe you.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    Stock appreciation is a hell of a drug. I have worked with multiple engineers making multiple millions a year. They were all ICs. To break into the 1% in SV - you need to make $3.6mil/yr. Just let that sink in. It's a very rich place.
    - junon 4y ago
      I didn't get that stock was part of that equation. I took it as base salary. SV is an outlier, really wish people would stop talking as though that's a universal amount, and that if you don't make that amount then you're not senior. I lived in SV and it's a disgustingly money-oriented culture.
  - runako 4y ago
    You need to speak to more senior people who work at companies that make their money selling software or Internet services. ("Senior" is not 5 years of experience. Think engineers in their 30s & 40s.)
korijn 4y ago
I don't think they said they currently are. I hope for their sake they moved on because it doesn't sound like they had a particularly great time. On topic: there are plenty of great employers in our industry but you will have to make an effort to find them. And of course it's never going to be perfect. Maybe this is an odd proposition, but if you can't find no-whiteboard employers in SV, why don't you go looking elsewhere?
naniwaduni 4y ago
It's still paying the bills and 80% of these problems aren't industry-exclusive?
- bradlys 4y ago
  I agree. A lot of these are not industry exclusive to tech/SV. However, we take it a bit further at times and more importantly we advertise that we're different. We like to think we're different. Other industries don't try to act like they're different. You go into law, biz, med, etc... You know what you're signing up for. You need to be a little brown nosing subservient ass hat - and everyone knows it. And everyone knows when you get to the top - you get to subject everyone everyone else to your whims, your hazing rituals, and so forth. They know that's the reward for getting to the top. Boss says you do X even if it's unethical to ask - in other industries you do it anyway. In SV, we act like it's okay for you to question it even if your boss will still fire you for insubordination. The difference is subtle but it's that SV at least tries to act like it's different even if they're not. That's what rubs me wrong about this industry the most. The virtue signaling without any real actions behind it. It is truly ghoulish.

0x20cowboy 4y ago

> These are common problems at companies within SV. Leetcode is hardly a problem when you see how fucking terrible the rest is. Am I understanding this logic? Are you saying let’s keep terrible, arguably pointless interview processes and needless gate keeping because there are other bad things in this world?

bradlys 4y ago
No, I’m saying there are bigger fish to fry. LC is easy compared to this other shit. LC makes your job search terrible. The work culture makes your life terrible.
- mountainriver 4y ago
  Cultures that accept LC are more likely to make your life terrible. I work for a company that pays well and doesn’t do LC because of all the obvious reasons, and that is a representation of the culture.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    $400k+/yr well for senior eng or “I think it’s enough”?
knorker 4y ago
Sometimes you have to do the stupid thing because the boss or the client tells you to. Some of those times you get to say "I told you so", later. But the reason you get paid is because someone wants to pay you to do it. You can try to convince them to do it right, but in the end it's their money. Do you want it? When you have the control you can try to make the better hiring system, but since you're asking i assume you're not in a position to dump your balls on the table and say you won't play their game, but they should still hire you. It's a gamble to as your first impression show that you're not a team player.
mountainriver 4y ago
Exactly, yeah let’s all keep going along with this nonsense cause ya know?

ethanwillis 4y ago

Sorry, but no. I refuse. The industry can continue to pump out subpar solutions with their toxic culture until the VC money dries up. Out of principle I will not memorize your LC problems. I won't deny it's a great filter for getting the exact type of people that will tolerate, enable, and expand this culture.

boredtofears 4y ago
When the VC money dries up I expect things to get worse, not better for candidates.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Which is fine! Nobody has to do LC and nobody has to apply to companies that use LC interviews. The reality is that when most people sit down and think about the math behind the finances, avoiding LC on principle comes with a massive opportunity cost that can exceed millions of dollars over the span of a career. Which again, totally fine if that's not your thing, but we should still let people know what's at stake.
- netizen-936824 4y ago
  The reality is that's only from one super limited perspective and fails to consider the ideals of the applicant and how they think companies should operate ethically. Becoming wealthy isn't the only thing in life, this includes considering which companies you're willing to work for based on how they operate and what they do. If we constantly have people buying into a damaging system just for the money, it compounds issues and they get worse down the road
- ethanwillis 4y ago
  I agree, it is fine if people choose to do this! It doesn't change my perspective on it however. There is definitely an opportunity cost. However, not in all cases. A single developer who is talented can take a variety of paths outside of this system to make significant or more money. I'm going to get ahead of the idea of the risk of stability and the implication I'm saying a software developer would be banking on risk/reward of a technology startup. I'd like to say that they can also use all the skills and knowledge of a software developer in a non-tech company with great success and similar or higher compensation with similar risk profiles.

curiousDog 4y ago

Very well said. To the OP: if you really are a good programmer, then mastering LC is just a matter of time and effort and really, the problems aren't that hard. You're also hired at most companies to solve problems; not just be a code monkey. It's a matter of interest and motivation not whether you're good at LC or not. LC is the best proxy we have for aptitude and general problem solving ability at this time. So best to suck it up and grind.

boredtofears 4y ago
Grinding LC is the definition of being a code monkey.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> You're very unlikely reaching $500k+/yr by avoiding LC compared to how trivial it is to reach once you accept it. I wouldn't say it's "trivial". It may feel that way once you've made it and been promoted up the ranks, but outside of that bubble I see a lot of people who have failed out of multiple attempts at FAANG interviews (despite practicing LC), burned out of FAANG jobs after a couple years, moved away from cities with those salaries (not every place offers remote work), or simply been unable to get through the promotion process to reach the upper ranks. Don't get me wrong: Practicing LC and grinding at FAANG is a remarkably easy way to reach $500K/yr salary compared to other options, but we need to stop pretending like it's automatic or easy. It's still hard and requires some degree of sacrifice/luck/location to get there.

bradlys 4y ago
In no way am I saying it's easy. I'm saying it's trivial compared to other options. Other options are basically fucking impossible. At least with FAANG and staff roles - there's a chance. Even if it might be this meme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGdhc9k07Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGdhc9k07Ms
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
> requires some degree of sacrifice/luck/location to get there. Bingo. You can answer everything perfectly and still not get it depending on interviewer or other applicants.

dhanna 4y ago

My problem is that I hate leetcode and I’m also burnt out from all the nonsense you mentioned

angarg12 4y ago

In the big scheme of things, there are worse things that grinding leetcode in order to land a 6 figure job.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]