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> where they argue they never consented to be governed They also never consented to birth. They are free to renounce their citizenship, however. Nobody is for

by _jal 4y ago

> where they argue they never consented to be governed They also never consented to birth. They are free to renounce their citizenship, however. Nobody is forcing them to stay US citizens. > Maybe we can experiment with better society designs on mars Hate to break it to you, but Mars colonies (assuming they ever exist) are going to be dictatorships. Lifeboat ethics don't leave a lot of room for arguing, let alone voting.

edgyquant 4y ago
The book Decline and Rise of Democracy goes into detail about this. Pretty much all nations that had a resource jugular (I.e. Egypt with the Nile) become extractive societies.
kaybe 4y ago
Is it really that easy for US citizens to leave? Where can you go if you have neither money nor education or skills and are older?
- fencepost 4y ago
  You can leave most countries and renounce citizenship, typically with some hoops to jump through but it can be done. The questions of where you'll go and how you'll support yourself are something that you'd best figure out before starting that process, because after you start your country of origin may well say 'not OUR problem anymore' about you.
- tempestn 4y ago
  That's not really the US's fault though, right? "You're free to leave, but if you want to stay here you have to abide by our rules," sounds reasonable I think. There are countries in the world where you're not free to leave even if another country will take you, and this argument would hold a lot more water.
t-3 4y ago
Renunciation is not free - they literally charge you for it. You also can't renounce without obtaining another citizenship, which, surprise, surprise, you generally have to buy with both time and money.
- _jal 4y ago
  Free as in freedom, not beer, as they say. But Sovereign Citizens are rugged individualists who don't need no handout, eh? > You also can't renounce without obtaining another citizenship That is false for US citizens. See: https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

by _jal 4y ago

edgyquant 4y ago

The book Decline and Rise of Democracy goes into detail about this. Pretty much all nations that had a resource jugular (I.e. Egypt with the Nile) become extractive societies.

kaybe 4y ago

Is it really that easy for US citizens to leave? Where can you go if you have neither money nor education or skills and are older?

fencepost 4y ago
You can leave most countries and renounce citizenship, typically with some hoops to jump through but it can be done. The questions of where you'll go and how you'll support yourself are something that you'd best figure out before starting that process, because after you start your country of origin may well say 'not OUR problem anymore' about you.
tempestn 4y ago
That's not really the US's fault though, right? "You're free to leave, but if you want to stay here you have to abide by our rules," sounds reasonable I think. There are countries in the world where you're not free to leave even if another country will take you, and this argument would hold a lot more water.

t-3 4y ago

Renunciation is not free - they literally charge you for it. You also can't renounce without obtaining another citizenship, which, surprise, surprise, you generally have to buy with both time and money.

_jal 4y ago
Free as in freedom, not beer, as they say. But Sovereign Citizens are rugged individualists who don't need no handout, eh? > You also can't renounce without obtaining another citizenship That is false for US citizens. See: https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship