5 ms·

The parent's point is that if you actually wanted to get there at any time other than exactly when the 7:08a train arrives, say because you have an appointment

The parent's point is that if you actually wanted to get there at any time other than exactly when the 7:08a train arrives, say because you have an appointment at a set time, then you're going to end up having a wait somewhere along your journey because the train wasn't on your ideal schedule. For example, if that train arrives at 10:08a, say, and the next train is the 9:09a which arrives at 12:09a, and you had an 11:00a appointment, you're going to wait 45 minutes at your destination because you couldn't arrive closer to the target time.

logifail 4y ago
> The parent's point is that if you actually wanted to get there at any time other than exactly when the 7:08a train arrives, say because you have an appointment at a set time, then you're going to end up having a wait somewhere along your journey because the train wasn't on your ideal schedule. If you're travelling a significant distance by car for an appointment at a fixed time, don't you have to allow extra time for traffic? (Depending on just how much traffic there might be) if the roads are "normal" you might well end up arriving at the destination 30 mins or even 45 mins early?
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  Yeah, if I was going far, I'd allow extra time, for sure. I don't actually live in Germany, so I don't really know how frequent these trains run. I have really only one example, where I missed a train from Frankfurt to Bingen, and had to pay a fortune for a cab ride because the next train was 3h later and I'd miss my planned day. But if that's a common frequency, the train can work out to be inconvenient, because you will have only a very few times you can plan on without building in lots of waiting. If you're going a far distance with an hourly service, it's probably convenient enough for most things, provided you never miss a train.
  - Pamar 4y ago
    While if you use a car you are at the mercy of "baustelle" (roadworks) and constantly risk to have slowdowns (e.g entering a major city at critical times). Until we have Star Trek teleports no single method of travel is "absolutely best". But dismissing trains altogether because they do not run at your own convenience looks a bit of a strawman to me. I do not own s car anymore, but when it is really the best option I rent one. But I also check first if a bus or train gives me reasonable guarantees to reach my destination in time (if they do, they are also way cheaper, especially since COVID, at least here).
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      I don’t see the accounting for the quantized arrival times imposed by a set schedule over the chosen times availed by a private car to be “dismissing trains [or airplanes] altogether“ but rather to be applying an appropriate factor to the door-to-door transit time. Exact same situation as train proponents [correctly] pointing out the additional time needed for airline security theater or transit from city center to airport adding to the door-to-door time for airlines, making airliners slower than trains for some city center to city center trips.
      - Pamar 4y ago
        Framed like this it is surely a much better argument. But just applying a flat 1-hour "penalty" to train transit is a bit of a strawman: railway companies do their best to give you sane options, so that if you are, for example, a commuter, you can get at your destination before 8am. I believe that the main difference in our viewpoinylts is this: people who drive a car tend to reason and plan as if the car is the most appropriate solution, and would not even think of checking fir alternatives unless special circumstances apply. People who learned to rely on public transport do the opposite. As I wrote already: I do not own a car, but I can drive, so if trains or buses do not offer viable options I just rent one. (The problem is that post Covid rental cars prices hiked, at least here, so the convenience in being more flexible gets often trumped by higher costs).
        sokoloff 4y ago
  - hesk 4y ago
    There is an ICE (high speed train) between Berlin and Hamburg every hour.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  > If you're travelling a significant distance by car for an appointment at a fixed time, don't you have to allow extra time for traffic? Yes, but once we start going down that road you're taking the 5:08 train. I don't think the variance with German trains is lower than with roads.
  - earthnail 4y ago
    In fact the variance for that very example - Hamburg Berlin - is much higher by car. Finding a parking spot in Berlin can be very tough, and you end up cruising around the neighbourhood for 10-20 minutes. Add another 10 minute walk from the parking spot to your destination. Traffic can vary, too, and you want to allow significant padding for traffic jams. If I drive from Hamburg to Berlin I’d start 3:30h before my appointment at the destination. With the train, 3h is probably realistic, although there is variance as the train only goes once per hour. It’s more extreme on the distance Berlin Munich, where taking the train is vastly faster. At night you can max out your car and drive an average speed of 200km/h down the Autobahn (although it’s extremely tiring to do that for hours), and then you can make the distance in 4h by car. During the day, 6:30-7:30h is more realistic. The train takes 3:45; add to that an hour for public transport on both sides. It’s different when you don’t go to the big cities. You can take the train from Munich to a ski resort in Austria, but it will take twice as long as the car, and you need a cab for the last few kilometres. But nothing beats the train when travelling between large cities in Germany (not even flying, unless you have a private jet).
withinboredom 4y ago
Yep. If you have an hour to kill, there’s always good street food, or just exploring a bit. It’s not a waste.
- 6510 4y ago
  And if you have an every minute counts life style or career you can get work done while traveling.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    This is the biggest thing to me. When I’m on a train, I can text, call, and even get some work done. When I’m driving, it’s actually quite dangerous to attempt those things; and not only for me, but the other people driving around me.
    - est31 4y ago
      In theory you can, but reception is notoriously bad in german trains. They know about it though and are constantly looking for improvements, e.g. the change a few years ago to allow for free wifi, or developments of glass technology. Links in german. https://www.golem.de/news/deutsche-bahn-wlan-im-ice-wird-kostenlos-1612-125319.html https://www.golem.de/news/deutsche-bahn-wlan-im-ice-wird-kos... https://www.golem.de/news/statt-repeater-bahn-holt-5g-durch-die-fenster-ins-wageninnere-2202-163225.html https://www.golem.de/news/statt-repeater-bahn-holt-5g-durch-...
      - Pamar 4y ago
        Yeah, I can testify that cell coverage is pretty bad, at least in the northern parts. ICE usually offer free wifi and the signal is a bit better, but still not really comparable with what I get in the North of Italy, for example.
        6510 4y ago
        Dutch trains almost all have wifi, it isn't fast tho and then, on busy trains, you get to share it with 100 people which is rather hilarious. Most people have cellular plans now and coverage is better than one would want it to be. edit: it is funny how youtube thinks the person on this IP address is waaaay into trains.

logifail 4y ago

> The parent's point is that if you actually wanted to get there at any time other than exactly when the 7:08a train arrives, say because you have an appointment at a set time, then you're going to end up having a wait somewhere along your journey because the train wasn't on your ideal schedule. If you're travelling a significant distance by car for an appointment at a fixed time, don't you have to allow extra time for traffic? (Depending on just how much traffic there might be) if the roads are "normal" you might well end up arriving at the destination 30 mins or even 45 mins early?

codefreeordie 4y ago
Yeah, if I was going far, I'd allow extra time, for sure. I don't actually live in Germany, so I don't really know how frequent these trains run. I have really only one example, where I missed a train from Frankfurt to Bingen, and had to pay a fortune for a cab ride because the next train was 3h later and I'd miss my planned day. But if that's a common frequency, the train can work out to be inconvenient, because you will have only a very few times you can plan on without building in lots of waiting. If you're going a far distance with an hourly service, it's probably convenient enough for most things, provided you never miss a train.
- Pamar 4y ago
  While if you use a car you are at the mercy of "baustelle" (roadworks) and constantly risk to have slowdowns (e.g entering a major city at critical times). Until we have Star Trek teleports no single method of travel is "absolutely best". But dismissing trains altogether because they do not run at your own convenience looks a bit of a strawman to me. I do not own s car anymore, but when it is really the best option I rent one. But I also check first if a bus or train gives me reasonable guarantees to reach my destination in time (if they do, they are also way cheaper, especially since COVID, at least here).
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I don’t see the accounting for the quantized arrival times imposed by a set schedule over the chosen times availed by a private car to be “dismissing trains [or airplanes] altogether“ but rather to be applying an appropriate factor to the door-to-door transit time. Exact same situation as train proponents [correctly] pointing out the additional time needed for airline security theater or transit from city center to airport adding to the door-to-door time for airlines, making airliners slower than trains for some city center to city center trips.
    - Pamar 4y ago
      Framed like this it is surely a much better argument. But just applying a flat 1-hour "penalty" to train transit is a bit of a strawman: railway companies do their best to give you sane options, so that if you are, for example, a commuter, you can get at your destination before 8am. I believe that the main difference in our viewpoinylts is this: people who drive a car tend to reason and plan as if the car is the most appropriate solution, and would not even think of checking fir alternatives unless special circumstances apply. People who learned to rely on public transport do the opposite. As I wrote already: I do not own a car, but I can drive, so if trains or buses do not offer viable options I just rent one. (The problem is that post Covid rental cars prices hiked, at least here, so the convenience in being more flexible gets often trumped by higher costs).
      - sokoloff 4y ago
- hesk 4y ago
  There is an ICE (high speed train) between Berlin and Hamburg every hour.
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
> If you're travelling a significant distance by car for an appointment at a fixed time, don't you have to allow extra time for traffic? Yes, but once we start going down that road you're taking the 5:08 train. I don't think the variance with German trains is lower than with roads.
- earthnail 4y ago
  In fact the variance for that very example - Hamburg Berlin - is much higher by car. Finding a parking spot in Berlin can be very tough, and you end up cruising around the neighbourhood for 10-20 minutes. Add another 10 minute walk from the parking spot to your destination. Traffic can vary, too, and you want to allow significant padding for traffic jams. If I drive from Hamburg to Berlin I’d start 3:30h before my appointment at the destination. With the train, 3h is probably realistic, although there is variance as the train only goes once per hour. It’s more extreme on the distance Berlin Munich, where taking the train is vastly faster. At night you can max out your car and drive an average speed of 200km/h down the Autobahn (although it’s extremely tiring to do that for hours), and then you can make the distance in 4h by car. During the day, 6:30-7:30h is more realistic. The train takes 3:45; add to that an hour for public transport on both sides. It’s different when you don’t go to the big cities. You can take the train from Munich to a ski resort in Austria, but it will take twice as long as the car, and you need a cab for the last few kilometres. But nothing beats the train when travelling between large cities in Germany (not even flying, unless you have a private jet).

withinboredom 4y ago

Yep. If you have an hour to kill, there’s always good street food, or just exploring a bit. It’s not a waste.

6510 4y ago
And if you have an every minute counts life style or career you can get work done while traveling.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  This is the biggest thing to me. When I’m on a train, I can text, call, and even get some work done. When I’m driving, it’s actually quite dangerous to attempt those things; and not only for me, but the other people driving around me.
  - est31 4y ago
    In theory you can, but reception is notoriously bad in german trains. They know about it though and are constantly looking for improvements, e.g. the change a few years ago to allow for free wifi, or developments of glass technology. Links in german. https://www.golem.de/news/deutsche-bahn-wlan-im-ice-wird-kostenlos-1612-125319.html https://www.golem.de/news/deutsche-bahn-wlan-im-ice-wird-kos... https://www.golem.de/news/statt-repeater-bahn-holt-5g-durch-die-fenster-ins-wageninnere-2202-163225.html https://www.golem.de/news/statt-repeater-bahn-holt-5g-durch-...
    - Pamar 4y ago
      Yeah, I can testify that cell coverage is pretty bad, at least in the northern parts. ICE usually offer free wifi and the signal is a bit better, but still not really comparable with what I get in the North of Italy, for example.
      - 6510 4y ago
        Dutch trains almost all have wifi, it isn't fast tho and then, on busy trains, you get to share it with 100 people which is rather hilarious. Most people have cellular plans now and coverage is better than one would want it to be. edit: it is funny how youtube thinks the person on this IP address is waaaay into trains.