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> 2015 - autonomous driving for highways and relatively simple roads I don't think they achieved "autonomous" driving in any way, since they require the human

> 2015 - autonomous driving for highways and relatively simple roads I don't think they achieved "autonomous" driving in any way, since they require the human driver to be paying attention. > 2016 - S/X can drive autonomously with greater safety than a person - generally true Really? I think this is an extraordinary claim given some of the crashes and near-crashes that have happened (and again, the "autonomous" word).

pmoriarty 4y ago
"I think this is an extraordinary claim given some of the crashes and near-crashes that have happened" Humans crash all the time. It would be interesting to see a comparison of how often humans crash vs how often Teslas crash while the car is driving "autonomously". I would not be at all surprised if humans fare worse, as there are plenty of horrible drivers, angry/distracted/inexperienced drivers, drunk drivers, sleepy drivers, etc...
- FartyMcFarter 4y ago
  > It would be interesting to see a comparison of how often humans crash vs how often Teslas crash while the car is driving "autonomously". Again, Tesla cars cannot drive autonomously by their own admission (they always require human attention), so this comparison isn't possible. Even if that weren't the case, there's also the issue that people only enable Autopilot in cherry-picked situations, which don't statistically represent general driving situations.
  - pmoriarty 4y ago
    "Tesla cars cannot drive autonomously by their own admission (they always require human attention)" Tesla instructs humans to be attentive while this feature is engaged, but obviously the car will keep driving even if the human's attention is elsewhere. So Teslas do drive autonomously.. just not always as safely as (some) humans do under certain conditions. Same with ordinary cruise control, which will keep the car going even when the human driver's attention is elsewhere, their foot is off the gas pedal and their hands are off the steering wheel.
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- ghaff 4y ago
  >Humans crash all the time. While minor accidents are obviously much more common, in the US, there's approximately one fatality per 100 million miles driven. And that's across all drivers across all cars including old clunkers in poor mechanical condition and lacking modern safety systems.
kemayo 4y ago
Yeah, I'd suspect that if this lawsuit succeeds it's going to be on the grounds that Tesla's marketing gave users the impression that their self-driving tech was better than it really is, contributing to negligent driving even if they were technically warned. (And, of course, "you can mostly not pay attention, until it's incredibly urgent that you be paying attention" is quite the recipe for unfortunate accidents.)
klibertp 4y ago
I don't know anything about the Teslas driving themselves, but on the safety front you need to take into account how absolutely horrible most human drivers' skills are. 90% of them (sure, me included... no, wait, I don't drive... I do have the license, though, so I might as well be included) think they are "above average" and that other users of the road are the problem - how would they ever improve their skills with that mindset? On the other hand, I don't think I will believe the problem to be solved before I see a self-driving bike. I mean, I would propel it, while it would steer without my input (other than setting destination). Once I do, I will have near total confidence in robo-taxis.
GuB-42 4y ago
> Really? I think this is an extraordinary claim given some of the crashes and near-crashes that have happened (and again, the "autonomous" word). The catch is that the situations where cars drive autonomously are easy, when the situation becomes complex, the autopilot bugs out and tells you to drive. Furthermore, the stereotypical easy case is on the highway, where you rack a lot of miles quickly, and statistics are typically "per mile driven". Once you remove the bias, Tesla's self driving is not safer, I think I have seen a study that says that in the situations where Teslas can self-drive, they are on the same level as a human driver.
- judge2020 4y ago
  > I think I have seen a study that says that in the situations where Teslas can self-drive, they are on the same level as a human driver. Maybe link to those studies. The one plus Tesla (and other ACC+lane keep systems that are obvious, as in 'loud beep when the system disengages'; my Honda notoriously gave the quietest beep whenever it lost its tracking of lane lines) has is that they don't look at their phone, don't get drowsy, and don't get distracted. So while many situations come up where a human could've prevented a crash, eg running into an overturned semi[0], it leads to about 3x less crashes compared to only passive safety features [1]. 0: https://electrek.co/2020/06/01/tesla-model-3-crashing-truck-autopilot-video-viral/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/01/tesla-model-3-crashing-truck-... 1: > one crash for every 4.31 million miles driven in which drivers were using Autopilot technology (Autosteer and active safety features). For drivers who were not using Autopilot technology (no Autosteer and active safety features), we recorded one crash for every 1.59 million miles driven. > we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before impact, and we count all crashes in which the incident alert indicated an airbag or other active restraint deployed. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
  - GuB-42 4y ago
    > Maybe link to those studies. Here: https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986 https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986 Discussed on HN here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30182141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30182141

pmoriarty 4y ago

"I think this is an extraordinary claim given some of the crashes and near-crashes that have happened" Humans crash all the time. It would be interesting to see a comparison of how often humans crash vs how often Teslas crash while the car is driving "autonomously". I would not be at all surprised if humans fare worse, as there are plenty of horrible drivers, angry/distracted/inexperienced drivers, drunk drivers, sleepy drivers, etc...

FartyMcFarter 4y ago
> It would be interesting to see a comparison of how often humans crash vs how often Teslas crash while the car is driving "autonomously". Again, Tesla cars cannot drive autonomously by their own admission (they always require human attention), so this comparison isn't possible. Even if that weren't the case, there's also the issue that people only enable Autopilot in cherry-picked situations, which don't statistically represent general driving situations.
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  "Tesla cars cannot drive autonomously by their own admission (they always require human attention)" Tesla instructs humans to be attentive while this feature is engaged, but obviously the car will keep driving even if the human's attention is elsewhere. So Teslas do drive autonomously.. just not always as safely as (some) humans do under certain conditions. Same with ordinary cruise control, which will keep the car going even when the human driver's attention is elsewhere, their foot is off the gas pedal and their hands are off the steering wheel.
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ghaff 4y ago
>Humans crash all the time. While minor accidents are obviously much more common, in the US, there's approximately one fatality per 100 million miles driven. And that's across all drivers across all cars including old clunkers in poor mechanical condition and lacking modern safety systems.

kemayo 4y ago

Yeah, I'd suspect that if this lawsuit succeeds it's going to be on the grounds that Tesla's marketing gave users the impression that their self-driving tech was better than it really is, contributing to negligent driving even if they were technically warned. (And, of course, "you can mostly not pay attention, until it's incredibly urgent that you be paying attention" is quite the recipe for unfortunate accidents.)

klibertp 4y ago

I don't know anything about the Teslas driving themselves, but on the safety front you need to take into account how absolutely horrible most human drivers' skills are. 90% of them (sure, me included... no, wait, I don't drive... I do have the license, though, so I might as well be included) think they are "above average" and that other users of the road are the problem - how would they ever improve their skills with that mindset? On the other hand, I don't think I will believe the problem to be solved before I see a self-driving bike. I mean, I would propel it, while it would steer without my input (other than setting destination). Once I do, I will have near total confidence in robo-taxis.

GuB-42 4y ago

> Really? I think this is an extraordinary claim given some of the crashes and near-crashes that have happened (and again, the "autonomous" word). The catch is that the situations where cars drive autonomously are easy, when the situation becomes complex, the autopilot bugs out and tells you to drive. Furthermore, the stereotypical easy case is on the highway, where you rack a lot of miles quickly, and statistics are typically "per mile driven". Once you remove the bias, Tesla's self driving is not safer, I think I have seen a study that says that in the situations where Teslas can self-drive, they are on the same level as a human driver.

judge2020 4y ago
> I think I have seen a study that says that in the situations where Teslas can self-drive, they are on the same level as a human driver. Maybe link to those studies. The one plus Tesla (and other ACC+lane keep systems that are obvious, as in 'loud beep when the system disengages'; my Honda notoriously gave the quietest beep whenever it lost its tracking of lane lines) has is that they don't look at their phone, don't get drowsy, and don't get distracted. So while many situations come up where a human could've prevented a crash, eg running into an overturned semi[0], it leads to about 3x less crashes compared to only passive safety features [1]. 0: https://electrek.co/2020/06/01/tesla-model-3-crashing-truck-autopilot-video-viral/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/01/tesla-model-3-crashing-truck-... 1: > one crash for every 4.31 million miles driven in which drivers were using Autopilot technology (Autosteer and active safety features). For drivers who were not using Autopilot technology (no Autosteer and active safety features), we recorded one crash for every 1.59 million miles driven. > we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before impact, and we count all crashes in which the incident alert indicated an airbag or other active restraint deployed. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
- GuB-42 4y ago
  > Maybe link to those studies. Here: https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986 https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1973/3986 Discussed on HN here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30182141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30182141