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Epic. This one gets me every time: Personal Mastery: If a system is to serve the creative spirit, it must be entirely comprehensible to a single individual.

Epic. This one gets me every time: Personal Mastery: If a system is to serve the creative spirit, it must be entirely comprehensible to a single individual. That combined with instant feedback can make you feel like a rockstar coder. And Smalltalk delivers.

igouy 4y ago
Perhaps "to serve the creative spirit" of the coder is not what most software development should be about?
- tgvaughan 4y ago
  Perhaps we need to get rid of this artificial distinction between users and programmers.
  - smegsicle 4y ago
    think i've seen the term 'operator' used in this context?
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    Precisely. Every barrier in place between using a system and programming it serves to elevate the decisions of its designers over those of its users. The greatest power of computers is their ability to be reshaped to meet whatever need the user has, but we mostly lock that power away from them.
  - dgb23 4y ago
    There's a subsection of people who are very well served by that. And it has already been happening. SQL, Python, HTML/CSS/JS are all things that people use who are not primarily programmers. Applications like Unity, Excel, some Adobe stuff also blur the line here. But let's not forget that there are a ton of people (many more than the above) who are constantly overwhelmed by computers even though they only use very few features. There's people who can't use ATMs and smartphones. Most computer users only ever use the most common applications (browsers, music/video players etc).
  - igouy 4y ago
    Perhaps users want to use apps without needing to program apps? Perhaps some want to play in a garden without needing to dig and plant and weed and…
    - t0suj4 4y ago
      I think you shouldn't need to program if you don't want to understand the problem domain.
      - igouy 4y ago
        Do you think someone should need to program if they want to understand the problem domain?
        macintux 4y ago
        Speaking for myself, I’ve never found a better way to understand something new.
        igouy 4y ago
        Perhaps a way to understand abstract categories.
    - carapace 4y ago
      > Multics Emacs proved to be a great success—programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program. ~ https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html
- _benj 4y ago
  I agree that "most software development" is not about serving the creative spirit of the coder, but it'd be a shame to lose that! And if in some way we could have our cake and eat it (i.e. enjoy the creative process of coding for most software) sounds like a win-win to me! Idealistic, but one can dream ;)
- Ingon 4y ago
  Absolutely! Software development is all about making money, and I think this in general is at odds with creativity (different goals, methods, practices, whatnot). However, I also think that there is large group of people who does not code for money, but to make art, have fun, or express themself, and "to serve the creative spirit" is exactly what they need.
  - igouy 4y ago
    Software development is also about making things work for other people.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  Literally almost every piece of consumer facing software is created using languages or frameworks that derive from Smalltalk-esque principles (OOP, MVP, IDEs, etc...). And the creative spirit is what brings innovation. Tons of what's obvious now wasn't obvious when someone created it.
  - igouy 4y ago
    Xerox PARC has certainly been influential: "The Alto software included four different programming environments: BCPL, Mesa, Smalltalk, and Lisp." https://computerhistory.org/blog/xerox-alto-source-code/ https://computerhistory.org/blog/xerox-alto-source-code/ https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-deep-history-of-your-apps-steve-jobs-nextstep-and-early-object-oriented-programming/ https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-deep-history-of-your-ap...
- jrvarela56 4y ago
  I sort of get where this comes from: the product should serve the users. But thinking of dev tools as the product for devs (the users in this context) is useful. Devs code better products if they enjoy using the tools.
  - igouy 4y ago
    > Devs code better products if they enjoy using the tools. Is there any evidence for that claim?
    - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
      A guitar's design shouldn't be at least enjoyable enough to make the guitarist a better player?
      - igouy 4y ago
        I don't think we've been talking about guitars.
        sebastianconcpt 4y ago
        Only if you missed the part that this technology tries to capture "the spirit" of the creative side of the coder which is an universal, hence my analogy with making "the coder feel like a rockstar".
        igouy 4y ago
        I asked "Is there any evidence for" the claim that "Devs code better products if they enjoy using the tools." So far nothing has been offered.
- samatman 4y ago
  "Even if you’re designing for professional programmers, in the end your programming language is basically a user-interface design. You will get much better results regardless of what you’re trying to do if you think of it as a user-interface design." -Alan Kay https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~susan/475/AlanKay.html https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~susan/475/AlanKay.html
  - igouy 4y ago
    Let's take that to be true, as-before — Perhaps "to serve the creative spirit" of the coder is not what most software development should be about. Perhaps most software development should be about effectiveness or reliability or …
    - roeles 4y ago
      In the words of Christopher Alexander, the programmer is the true inhabiter of the program. Since we can expect the world in which the program should function will change, so should the program. It is the programmer that has to figure out, often with experiments, what changes to the program work best. Therefore it makes no sense to me to focus on anything but serving the programmer.
      - samatman 4y ago
        The better the experience is for the programmer, the more users will say "y'know what? This doesn't quite do what I want, I wonder how I change that" and presto, they're a programmer now. We would never have had Hypercard if it weren't for Smalltalk and Alan Kay, and we've never had a platform as good as Hypercard since. That's a crying shame.
      - igouy 4y ago
        Who does the programmer "serve" ?
- sebastianconcpt 4y ago
  Isn't software a form of literacy? Why should not be about? I'm not understanding yet your line of reasoning.

igouy 4y ago

Perhaps "to serve the creative spirit" of the coder is not what most software development should be about?

tgvaughan 4y ago
Perhaps we need to get rid of this artificial distinction between users and programmers.
- smegsicle 4y ago
  think i've seen the term 'operator' used in this context?
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  Precisely. Every barrier in place between using a system and programming it serves to elevate the decisions of its designers over those of its users. The greatest power of computers is their ability to be reshaped to meet whatever need the user has, but we mostly lock that power away from them.
- dgb23 4y ago
  There's a subsection of people who are very well served by that. And it has already been happening. SQL, Python, HTML/CSS/JS are all things that people use who are not primarily programmers. Applications like Unity, Excel, some Adobe stuff also blur the line here. But let's not forget that there are a ton of people (many more than the above) who are constantly overwhelmed by computers even though they only use very few features. There's people who can't use ATMs and smartphones. Most computer users only ever use the most common applications (browsers, music/video players etc).
- igouy 4y ago
  Perhaps users want to use apps without needing to program apps? Perhaps some want to play in a garden without needing to dig and plant and weed and…
  - t0suj4 4y ago
    I think you shouldn't need to program if you don't want to understand the problem domain.
    - igouy 4y ago
      Do you think someone should need to program if they want to understand the problem domain?
      - macintux 4y ago
        Speaking for myself, I’ve never found a better way to understand something new.
        igouy 4y ago
        Perhaps a way to understand abstract categories.
  - carapace 4y ago
    > Multics Emacs proved to be a great success—programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program. ~ https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html
_benj 4y ago
I agree that "most software development" is not about serving the creative spirit of the coder, but it'd be a shame to lose that! And if in some way we could have our cake and eat it (i.e. enjoy the creative process of coding for most software) sounds like a win-win to me! Idealistic, but one can dream ;)
Ingon 4y ago
Absolutely! Software development is all about making money, and I think this in general is at odds with creativity (different goals, methods, practices, whatnot). However, I also think that there is large group of people who does not code for money, but to make art, have fun, or express themself, and "to serve the creative spirit" is exactly what they need.
- igouy 4y ago
  Software development is also about making things work for other people.
Mikeb85 4y ago
Literally almost every piece of consumer facing software is created using languages or frameworks that derive from Smalltalk-esque principles (OOP, MVP, IDEs, etc...). And the creative spirit is what brings innovation. Tons of what's obvious now wasn't obvious when someone created it.
- igouy 4y ago
  Xerox PARC has certainly been influential: "The Alto software included four different programming environments: BCPL, Mesa, Smalltalk, and Lisp." https://computerhistory.org/blog/xerox-alto-source-code/ https://computerhistory.org/blog/xerox-alto-source-code/ https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-deep-history-of-your-apps-steve-jobs-nextstep-and-early-object-oriented-programming/ https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-deep-history-of-your-ap...
jrvarela56 4y ago
I sort of get where this comes from: the product should serve the users. But thinking of dev tools as the product for devs (the users in this context) is useful. Devs code better products if they enjoy using the tools.
- igouy 4y ago
  > Devs code better products if they enjoy using the tools. Is there any evidence for that claim?
  - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
    A guitar's design shouldn't be at least enjoyable enough to make the guitarist a better player?
    - igouy 4y ago
      I don't think we've been talking about guitars.
      - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
        Only if you missed the part that this technology tries to capture "the spirit" of the creative side of the coder which is an universal, hence my analogy with making "the coder feel like a rockstar".
        igouy 4y ago
        I asked "Is there any evidence for" the claim that "Devs code better products if they enjoy using the tools." So far nothing has been offered.
samatman 4y ago
"Even if you’re designing for professional programmers, in the end your programming language is basically a user-interface design. You will get much better results regardless of what you’re trying to do if you think of it as a user-interface design." -Alan Kay https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~susan/475/AlanKay.html https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~susan/475/AlanKay.html
- igouy 4y ago
  Let's take that to be true, as-before — Perhaps "to serve the creative spirit" of the coder is not what most software development should be about. Perhaps most software development should be about effectiveness or reliability or …
  - roeles 4y ago
    In the words of Christopher Alexander, the programmer is the true inhabiter of the program. Since we can expect the world in which the program should function will change, so should the program. It is the programmer that has to figure out, often with experiments, what changes to the program work best. Therefore it makes no sense to me to focus on anything but serving the programmer.
    - samatman 4y ago
      The better the experience is for the programmer, the more users will say "y'know what? This doesn't quite do what I want, I wonder how I change that" and presto, they're a programmer now. We would never have had Hypercard if it weren't for Smalltalk and Alan Kay, and we've never had a platform as good as Hypercard since. That's a crying shame.
    - igouy 4y ago
      Who does the programmer "serve" ?
sebastianconcpt 4y ago
Isn't software a form of literacy? Why should not be about? I'm not understanding yet your line of reasoning.