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Former "large China FAANG" employee here so I can speak authoritatively on this. These things above fail to take in the culture aspect. Generally, "being prese

Former "large China FAANG" employee here so I can speak authoritatively on this. These things above fail to take in the culture aspect. Generally, "being present" is considered "work", so the idea is to be present in the office for all of these hours. When "we" (Americans) showed up at 8a-9a, busted out an enormous of amount of code, email, meetings, etc then left at 4p-5p was quite a shock to our native compadres. One of the managers actually asked us to slow down as they weren't able to keep up and were causing problems. A snooty person would claim "oh look how much better the American system is", but it's much more complex than that. First, the Chinese have a very interesting total life integration. You still get married at late biblical ages (15-19), your parents move in with you and take care of the kids, you generally don't own many things (including a house), and your job and coworkers are friends and very much part of your life; you'll eat three meals a day with them and talk long walks. Your job pace is much slower and therefore, hours much longer. Americans tend to live these absurd double identities, where we have coworkers our spouses will never meet, and we rarely interact with said coworkers outside of work, which is quite a culture shock to the Chinese. There was just another thread on HN about "fundatory activities", and how badly they can go over, which simply wouldn't exist in China. In the end, just a different system, based on completely different national ideals. It's hard to understand until you're there living and breathing it.

mcv 4y ago
Even so, what's the point of "being present" at work and not actually working? I'd rather spend that time with my family or friends.
- wbsss4412 4y ago
  I think they just explained it in their comment… your coworkers are your friends. I think the flip side of what you’re saying is, why would you not want to be friends with the people you spend 8+ hours a day with during the workweek?
  - mcv 4y ago
    And if you get fired, you get fired from being friends with them too? I certainly want to be able to get along with my coworkers, but it's not quite the same thing as being friends. There are few former coworkers that I keep in touch with after I leave a job. I tend to have my friends outside work. And my family too.
    - wbsss4412 4y ago
      I mean I am an American, and I live my life in accordance with American norms. I just am pointing out how cultural differences lead to different perspectives. I would imagine that Chinese corporate culture around layoffs is also very different from how it is in America. It’s really difficult to comprehend all of the small details that go into living within a different culture, and isolated components end up seeming bizarre, while they are perfectly logical when you live within the system itself.
    - exabrial 4y ago
      Are you certain the concept of "Getting fired" exists in the way you perceive it over there?
      - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
        Is this question more than rhetorical? Because the answer is non-obvious to a Westerner like me. Surely there exists a scenario where the company tells an employee "we no longer want you to do anything for us, we will no longer pay you, and you will no longer have access to the building", in that scenario it does sound like they're losing a large part of the people in their life?
        wbsss4412 4y ago
        I think at this point in the thread, most of us are just outsiders speculating. To add my bit: given the growth rate of the Chinese economy over the last several decades, it’s highly likely that American style layoffs are exceedingly uncommon in China, to the point where the fear that you may lose your job and thus your whole social life is much less of a fear, at least to the extent that it is perceived as beyond your own control.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  Perhaps its to maintain the perception of being of a higher social class than the peasantry (baseless speculation)
gdfgjhs 4y ago
As a Pakistani-American, I can confirm, this is exactly how many people from my culture also work, though not as extreme as 9-9. We may take long lunches, go for multiple coffee breaks, walks, etc. May even watch some Bollywood movies while working. But as a father, this is horrible work schedule. Culturally, it is totally acceptable for fathers to just provide but not really interact with their kids. Also there is an aspect of heroism of fathers working long hours to provide. And then, unfortunately, for some there is no option but to work long hours because they need extra money. But some men would rather stay away from their children and let moms or grandparents raise the them. And I do know some such men. They stay late at work to avoid their families, they even bring their gaming laptops to work, so they can game after 5 and avoid their families. Honestly, work is a walk in a park compared to being a good father. But it is hard to tell who is avoiding their families, who is staying late because of cultural pressures, and who really need to work late hours to provide for their families.

mcv 4y ago

Even so, what's the point of "being present" at work and not actually working? I'd rather spend that time with my family or friends.

wbsss4412 4y ago
I think they just explained it in their comment… your coworkers are your friends. I think the flip side of what you’re saying is, why would you not want to be friends with the people you spend 8+ hours a day with during the workweek?
- mcv 4y ago
  And if you get fired, you get fired from being friends with them too? I certainly want to be able to get along with my coworkers, but it's not quite the same thing as being friends. There are few former coworkers that I keep in touch with after I leave a job. I tend to have my friends outside work. And my family too.
  - wbsss4412 4y ago
    I mean I am an American, and I live my life in accordance with American norms. I just am pointing out how cultural differences lead to different perspectives. I would imagine that Chinese corporate culture around layoffs is also very different from how it is in America. It’s really difficult to comprehend all of the small details that go into living within a different culture, and isolated components end up seeming bizarre, while they are perfectly logical when you live within the system itself.
  - exabrial 4y ago
    Are you certain the concept of "Getting fired" exists in the way you perceive it over there?
    - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
      Is this question more than rhetorical? Because the answer is non-obvious to a Westerner like me. Surely there exists a scenario where the company tells an employee "we no longer want you to do anything for us, we will no longer pay you, and you will no longer have access to the building", in that scenario it does sound like they're losing a large part of the people in their life?
      - wbsss4412 4y ago
        I think at this point in the thread, most of us are just outsiders speculating. To add my bit: given the growth rate of the Chinese economy over the last several decades, it’s highly likely that American style layoffs are exceedingly uncommon in China, to the point where the fear that you may lose your job and thus your whole social life is much less of a fear, at least to the extent that it is perceived as beyond your own control.
orangepurple 4y ago
Perhaps its to maintain the perception of being of a higher social class than the peasantry (baseless speculation)

gdfgjhs 4y ago

As a Pakistani-American, I can confirm, this is exactly how many people from my culture also work, though not as extreme as 9-9. We may take long lunches, go for multiple coffee breaks, walks, etc. May even watch some Bollywood movies while working. But as a father, this is horrible work schedule. Culturally, it is totally acceptable for fathers to just provide but not really interact with their kids. Also there is an aspect of heroism of fathers working long hours to provide. And then, unfortunately, for some there is no option but to work long hours because they need extra money. But some men would rather stay away from their children and let moms or grandparents raise the them. And I do know some such men. They stay late at work to avoid their families, they even bring their gaming laptops to work, so they can game after 5 and avoid their families. Honestly, work is a walk in a park compared to being a good father. But it is hard to tell who is avoiding their families, who is staying late because of cultural pressures, and who really need to work late hours to provide for their families.