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Women already feel pressure to perform sexual favors in exchange for things. That is a problem with society and culture, quite separate from what we're talking

by warent 4y ago

Women already feel pressure to perform sexual favors in exchange for things. That is a problem with society and culture, quite separate from what we're talking about here. All adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies. It is theirs, after all.

rayiner 4y ago
> Women already feel pressure to perform sexual favors in exchange for things. That is a problem with society and culture, quite separate from what we're talking about here. No, it's completely intertwined. Because these pressures exist in numerous contexts, we've developed both social norms and laws to limit the race to the bottom, overwhelmingly with the support of the women affected by those pressures. > All adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies. It is theirs, after all. Which women? More women identify as "conservative" than "liberal"--and even among the latter, legalizing sex work is not a majority (and possibly not even mainstream) position. My mom thinks sex work is very bad for society. It's probably one of the things my mom, all my aunts, and my wife's mom and aunts agree with, despite being from different countries and otherwise having quite different political views. Opposition to sex work is something that women tend to get the most riled up about, because ultimately its mothers and daughters that suffer from the consequences of sex work.
- evgen 4y ago
  > Which women? More women identify as "conservative" than "liberal" Not even close to reality. More women identify as liberal than as conservative, more are registered Democrats than Republicans, and even within the Republican party women skew moderate rather than conservative. Among nonvoters the gender breakdown on various issues that can be easily identified as liberal or conservative shows that women favor policies that are generally considered liberal.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    More women identify as conservative than liberal: https://news.gallup.com/poll/388988/political-ideology-steady-conservatives-moderates-tie.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/388988/political-ideology-stead..., with the plurality identifying as moderate. People think sex work should be “mainstreamed” (as stated by OP) would almost certainly identify as liberal; and I’d be surprised if even a majority of self-described liberals would support that position. Women tend to be less libertarian than men, and sometimes that breaks towards more liberal attitudes (they are more likely to favor generous social programs), and sometimes that breaks towards more conservative attitudes (they are more likely to oppose legalized prostitution and pornography). As of 2016, attitudes were closely divided on legalizing sex work overall (40% in favor, 43% against). But the gender breakdown was striking: https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-men-women-poll https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me.... Men supported legalization 51-36, while women opposed it 30-50. Women similarly oppose pornography--just 25% find it morally acceptable, compared to 43% of men: https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/snqr1ifu40ogxi0zbyp-va.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro... Being a Democrat, of course, isn't dispositive of anything. My mom is a democrat, because she likes Obamacare and Anthony Fauci. But she's as socially conservative as any republican. (Like Black people: https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-republicans-some-moral-issues.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-repu...) Social libertarianism is championed mainly by the white college educated wing of the Democratic Party. But the party is ideologically diverse. For example, under 60% of Democrats say that “changing gender roles” has “made it easier for women to lead satisfying lives”: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-partisan-gaps-in-u-s-over-how-far-the-country-has-come-on-gender-equality https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-pa.... For Democrats without a college degree, it's under 50%. Sorry for the lengthy rant, but people projecting their views onto "women" (or another popular one these days, "people of color") has become a pet peeve of mine. When you say stuff like what "adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies" you’re making a libertarian argument, and statistically that’s going to be most appealing to white men. (That doesn’t make it wrong, but if you’re going to bring identity into it you don’t get to play fast and loose with what arguments different groups tend to find more compelling.)
Cloudef 4y ago
Bullshit, women know they get things in exchange for some play or because of their looks. Not every women of course does this, but its foolish to ignore the group that very well knows this and uses this to their advance. Its not the womans fault though, its the man who falls for this. Similarily theres men who do the same thing using either their looks or wealth as a chip. We are human, but we are also bunch of monkeys in the end.

by warent 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

> Women already feel pressure to perform sexual favors in exchange for things. That is a problem with society and culture, quite separate from what we're talking about here. No, it's completely intertwined. Because these pressures exist in numerous contexts, we've developed both social norms and laws to limit the race to the bottom, overwhelmingly with the support of the women affected by those pressures. > All adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies. It is theirs, after all. Which women? More women identify as "conservative" than "liberal"--and even among the latter, legalizing sex work is not a majority (and possibly not even mainstream) position. My mom thinks sex work is very bad for society. It's probably one of the things my mom, all my aunts, and my wife's mom and aunts agree with, despite being from different countries and otherwise having quite different political views. Opposition to sex work is something that women tend to get the most riled up about, because ultimately its mothers and daughters that suffer from the consequences of sex work.

evgen 4y ago
> Which women? More women identify as "conservative" than "liberal" Not even close to reality. More women identify as liberal than as conservative, more are registered Democrats than Republicans, and even within the Republican party women skew moderate rather than conservative. Among nonvoters the gender breakdown on various issues that can be easily identified as liberal or conservative shows that women favor policies that are generally considered liberal.
- rayiner 4y ago
  More women identify as conservative than liberal: https://news.gallup.com/poll/388988/political-ideology-steady-conservatives-moderates-tie.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/388988/political-ideology-stead..., with the plurality identifying as moderate. People think sex work should be “mainstreamed” (as stated by OP) would almost certainly identify as liberal; and I’d be surprised if even a majority of self-described liberals would support that position. Women tend to be less libertarian than men, and sometimes that breaks towards more liberal attitudes (they are more likely to favor generous social programs), and sometimes that breaks towards more conservative attitudes (they are more likely to oppose legalized prostitution and pornography). As of 2016, attitudes were closely divided on legalizing sex work overall (40% in favor, 43% against). But the gender breakdown was striking: https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-men-women-poll https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me.... Men supported legalization 51-36, while women opposed it 30-50. Women similarly oppose pornography--just 25% find it morally acceptable, compared to 43% of men: https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/snqr1ifu40ogxi0zbyp-va.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro... Being a Democrat, of course, isn't dispositive of anything. My mom is a democrat, because she likes Obamacare and Anthony Fauci. But she's as socially conservative as any republican. (Like Black people: https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-republicans-some-moral-issues.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-repu...) Social libertarianism is championed mainly by the white college educated wing of the Democratic Party. But the party is ideologically diverse. For example, under 60% of Democrats say that “changing gender roles” has “made it easier for women to lead satisfying lives”: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-partisan-gaps-in-u-s-over-how-far-the-country-has-come-on-gender-equality https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-pa.... For Democrats without a college degree, it's under 50%. Sorry for the lengthy rant, but people projecting their views onto "women" (or another popular one these days, "people of color") has become a pet peeve of mine. When you say stuff like what "adult women want is the empowerment to make decisions for their own bodies" you’re making a libertarian argument, and statistically that’s going to be most appealing to white men. (That doesn’t make it wrong, but if you’re going to bring identity into it you don’t get to play fast and loose with what arguments different groups tend to find more compelling.)

Cloudef 4y ago

Bullshit, women know they get things in exchange for some play or because of their looks. Not every women of course does this, but its foolish to ignore the group that very well knows this and uses this to their advance. Its not the womans fault though, its the man who falls for this. Similarily theres men who do the same thing using either their looks or wealth as a chip. We are human, but we are also bunch of monkeys in the end.