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As a user (not publisher / developer): * Based on occasional Hacker News coverage, and first principles, I was ready to dislike AMP * After reading this artic

As a user (not publisher / developer): * Based on occasional Hacker News coverage, and first principles, I was ready to dislike AMP * After reading this article, I am wondering if I should explore it more and embrace it, because as a user, literally every single one of their defined "problems & issues" is a net benefit to me. Harder for publishers to embed ads? Great. Harder for publishers to run own code and track you and run more analytics? Awesome. Harder for publishers to "present their brand value"? Brilliant. After thinking about it, it works great for me. When I want a specific website I go to a specific website. When I randomly peruse news and articles, I want minimum ads, minimum differentiation and "brand value", minimum code. I don't care about who what where how they are. When I watch Google News Carousel, I'm OK to be in walled garden. Google News Carousel is not "The Internet" for me, it's the equivalent of facebook or twitter or instagram. Basically, the author just managed to completely sell me on AMP!

sanderjd 4y ago
Yep, users love it. People on HN hate it because we're weirdos and many of us interact with it on the publisher side rather than the user side. It's like asking cashiers what they think of self checkout.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  Nah, we hate it because it does weird stuff like slowing down adblocker users. I don’t care about AMP work-wise, we never considered using it. But I hate it as a user, and back when it briefly became a thing, I used extensions to route me to the actual link instead of the google hosted page.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    For what it's worth, in my experience Google employees, being part of the same bubble as HN at large, almost entirely despise AMP. It's a big company and a very tiny number of people work on or adjacent to AMP.
    - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
      I think the point I would emphasize and criticize about your remarks is not that "Googlers love AMP", but that "Googlers believe that users love AMP". One thing I hope that you will learn with time is that Google religiously indoctrinates a trust in data that is extremely, extremely wrong. And that Googlers are taught to shut down arguments based on the inherent trust in that internal data that they obviously can't share publicly or permit external review of. And I say this as someone who has provided extensive in-home computer support to senior citizens. I understand the world far outside the HN bubble because I actively work with people about as far outside of it as you can get.
      - sanderjd 4y ago
        I don't think the second statement is true at all. At least I've never had a discussion with a Google employee who expressed that. My opinions come from watching my friends and family who are not techies (by profession or inclination) navigate the web. It's not that AMP is great or anything, it's that most web pages now really suck. I think people really underestimate the extent to which Google (like all giant companies) is a collection of really separate organizations. I don't know any more about or have any closer attachment to AMP than any other nerd that uses the internet. I just think it is the best of the bad solutions to the out of control slow bloat problem with web pages now (and for quite awhile).
- nerdjon 4y ago
  Users don't know what AMP is. If it suddenly went away most users would never say a thing. To say that "users love it" implies they know it exists in the first place. The internet was just fine before AMP was a thing.
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    If it went away users would vaguely wonder why the search results links they follow are now slow loading and more ad blighted than they were recently. They love the outcome without knowing what is achieving it.
    - Mindwipe 4y ago
      > If it went away users would vaguely wonder why the search results links they follow are now slow loading and more ad blighted than they were recently. They love the outcome without knowing what is achieving it. They'd be pretty happy that the webpages then landed on y'know, worked.
    - nerdjon 4y ago
      I highly doubt any user would make that connection. At best they will think that some sites put out a UI change (which is normal) at worst they will think that their internet is a bit slow for a bit and in a few days won't think about it again. You are assuming that the normal user would assume that different websites behaving slightly differently would somehow be connected. That is assuming way too much technical knowledge on the case of an average consumer. You are also parroting a supposed benefit when not only has cellular gotten faster, home internet, wifi, general internet infrastructure has also gotten faster and the idea that we need AMP for something to load fast is... frankly a lie. As far as ads go... maybe? But in my experience anywhere that AMP would actually be used, I don't see this issue (and I also don't want google having more power over ads). I have an app on my phone to always redirect AMP and I don't experience any issues because of it. Users will not care. Or notice, or think about it for more than a minute of "Oh hey, this site changed something" and move on with their day. Edit: The fact that google had to strong-arm publishes into this (when if it did what it claimed, publishes should love it!). Has continued to refuse to give users the ability to disable it. Shows that users don't care. Google knows that if they gave the option, people would disable it because someone told them they should. But the unfortunate truth is we don't know for 100% certainty how users feel because no choice was given.
RobertRoberts 4y ago
Long term it's most definitely _NOT_ better for you. The reasons why are just too nuanced to satisfy a public debate. Thankfully people that understand the very, very real danger to not just the internet, but security, freedom of speech, and host of other very core concepts all human hold dear are at stake if things _like_ AMP replace an open and free internet.
ec109685 4y ago
And the trope about it being slower is false. Yes, if you serve an amp page to someone who happens to come to your site, it’s slower, but if it’s displayed from Google search result page, Google pre-renders the page, making it instant. The Apple News comparison is interesting from the article. Why doesn’t Apple get the hate given Apple News doesn’t just link to mobile web pages instead of articles of their own format?
- nerdjon 4y ago
  Apple News is a choice for both the publisher and the user. Also its an App, it sending you to a website would not be a great user experience. APM was strong-armed onto publishers and users never had a choice, even though google has long been asked to have an option to enable APM from the user side. Google used their search control to get APM used.
- canes123456 4y ago
  Users and publishers opt in and out for apple news. Google makes it hard as hell to opt out of it for customers. They also show up higher in google so it not really an option to not support it as a publisher.
  - ec109685 4y ago
    There are tens of millions who use Apple News since it’s the default news reading experience everywhere on iOS, so not participating would hurt publishers.
- tyingq 4y ago
  >Why doesn’t Apple get the hate Because Apple News isn't an effective defacto monopoly in huge spaces like "web search" and "browsers". AMP content gets forced on, for example, Android owners, and it's difficult to avoid. And it was forced on publishers when the net effect of not using it was reduced organic traffic...that's how you got shite stuff like Reddit AMP pages.
  - ec109685 4y ago
dundarious 4y ago
All it did was shift who got to collect everything. The amount of surveillance done by ad tech is not good. Google being the central and sole entity doing the same surveillance is probably even less good. And as a user, I hated using AMP pages for UX reasons as well.
superkuh 4y ago
You love it now. If it gains acceptance the results of the increasing centralization and control being given to google and cloudflare will bite you in the medium term. A few megacorps in control will go bad much faster and more completely than tens of thousands of independent human and corporate persons. Yes, "publishers" (corporations) do want to do things that are bad for human persons. But guess what? So do the mega-publishers like google and cloudflare.
dgb23 4y ago
You can also just use an RSS reader, to solve many of these problems for you. In addition: > Harder for publishers to run own code and track you and run more analytics? Awesome. Now it's just Google who tracks you. > Harder for publishers to embed ads? Great. Not for Google. They would also automatically log you in if you visit an AMP page. Make no mistake, this was just an attempt of control. The much more reasonable alternative to incentivize higher performance and less bloat, but let publishers decide how to achieve that. Lighthouse helps to some degree.
- jasode 4y ago
  >You can also just use an RSS reader, to solve many of these problems for you. You're inserting the typical "you can just ..." tone in your advice as if it's a simple solution but you're overlooking the full context of the parent's post: (1) RSS works better for a known set of urls to pull from. When the parent states that he's randomly clicking on news stories (some being AMP cached pages) from Google search results, that's not really something that RSS can solve because one can't predict the unknown future urls to include in a feeds list. (2) Many publishers (e.g. news sites like NYTimes) that offer RSS do not put the full text and only offer the headline and/or a partial extract.
  - dgb23 4y ago
    You're right on both accounts. Should have said it solves some problems. We still want incentives for performant, lightweight websites as I said further down. (Not to say that there aren't any great websites that are not lightweight, but the value they provide outweighs the cost, from the users perspective.) Point being, AMP isn't needed for any of this.
canes123456 4y ago
In practice, amp breaks the web page and makes it hard to move to other parts of the site. You can blame the site owners but at the end of the day the experience of disabling amp and running an ad blocker is dramatically better
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stetrain 4y ago
If AMP were just a high-performance subset spec of JS/HTML that Google gave a pagerank boost to I think it would be viewed pretty favorably. The main issues seem to be around the caching features, which to allow even simple hit-count analytics requires sending analytics calls through some third party (usually Google). As a site owner you can’t do no-js analytics because you can’t even check server logs for page hit counts. There are also still some weird details where the interaction on those pages (like scrolling) does not always feel native (it isn’t) and sharing the URL sends you to the hosted cache not the author’s site. I’d be all in favor of something inspired by AMP that is just a test of “This page is a simple, fast-loading, no-hijacking web document”
- Kalium 4y ago
  Speaking only, solely, and specifically as a user... why do I care if the content is in an integrity-checked hosted cache or if the site owner has analytics? Neither is important to the experience of accessing the content. The problem with simple, fast-loading, no-hijacking web documents is that history shows quite clearly that they don't stay that way for long. Every single website owner could adopt that standard today. Every single website owner has had that same chance every day for the past two decades. We're still not there.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Users don't always know what's good for them.
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Speaking solely as as a user, because I don’t want to use Google’s fucking cache just to read a damn web page. And the scrolling sucks. And why the fuck is it so hard to just get the canonical URL for the page? Seriously, if google had been just a little less aggressive about preventing users from leaving their little AMP ecosystem, it might have taken off.
  - stetrain 4y ago
    > The problem with simple, fast-loading, no-hijacking web documents is that history shows quite clearly that they don't stay that way for long. Every single website owner could adopt that standard today. Every single website owner has had that same chance every day for the past two decades. We're still not there. They wouldn't be adopting AMP either except Google put their market weight behind it and said you should adopt AMP if you don't want to be punished in search results.

sanderjd 4y ago

Yep, users love it. People on HN hate it because we're weirdos and many of us interact with it on the publisher side rather than the user side. It's like asking cashiers what they think of self checkout.

Semaphor 4y ago
Nah, we hate it because it does weird stuff like slowing down adblocker users. I don’t care about AMP work-wise, we never considered using it. But I hate it as a user, and back when it briefly became a thing, I used extensions to route me to the actual link instead of the google hosted page.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ocdtrekkie 4y ago
- sanderjd 4y ago
  For what it's worth, in my experience Google employees, being part of the same bubble as HN at large, almost entirely despise AMP. It's a big company and a very tiny number of people work on or adjacent to AMP.
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    I think the point I would emphasize and criticize about your remarks is not that "Googlers love AMP", but that "Googlers believe that users love AMP". One thing I hope that you will learn with time is that Google religiously indoctrinates a trust in data that is extremely, extremely wrong. And that Googlers are taught to shut down arguments based on the inherent trust in that internal data that they obviously can't share publicly or permit external review of. And I say this as someone who has provided extensive in-home computer support to senior citizens. I understand the world far outside the HN bubble because I actively work with people about as far outside of it as you can get.
    - sanderjd 4y ago
      I don't think the second statement is true at all. At least I've never had a discussion with a Google employee who expressed that. My opinions come from watching my friends and family who are not techies (by profession or inclination) navigate the web. It's not that AMP is great or anything, it's that most web pages now really suck. I think people really underestimate the extent to which Google (like all giant companies) is a collection of really separate organizations. I don't know any more about or have any closer attachment to AMP than any other nerd that uses the internet. I just think it is the best of the bad solutions to the out of control slow bloat problem with web pages now (and for quite awhile).
nerdjon 4y ago
Users don't know what AMP is. If it suddenly went away most users would never say a thing. To say that "users love it" implies they know it exists in the first place. The internet was just fine before AMP was a thing.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  If it went away users would vaguely wonder why the search results links they follow are now slow loading and more ad blighted than they were recently. They love the outcome without knowing what is achieving it.
  - Mindwipe 4y ago
    > If it went away users would vaguely wonder why the search results links they follow are now slow loading and more ad blighted than they were recently. They love the outcome without knowing what is achieving it. They'd be pretty happy that the webpages then landed on y'know, worked.
  - nerdjon 4y ago
    I highly doubt any user would make that connection. At best they will think that some sites put out a UI change (which is normal) at worst they will think that their internet is a bit slow for a bit and in a few days won't think about it again. You are assuming that the normal user would assume that different websites behaving slightly differently would somehow be connected. That is assuming way too much technical knowledge on the case of an average consumer. You are also parroting a supposed benefit when not only has cellular gotten faster, home internet, wifi, general internet infrastructure has also gotten faster and the idea that we need AMP for something to load fast is... frankly a lie. As far as ads go... maybe? But in my experience anywhere that AMP would actually be used, I don't see this issue (and I also don't want google having more power over ads). I have an app on my phone to always redirect AMP and I don't experience any issues because of it. Users will not care. Or notice, or think about it for more than a minute of "Oh hey, this site changed something" and move on with their day. Edit: The fact that google had to strong-arm publishes into this (when if it did what it claimed, publishes should love it!). Has continued to refuse to give users the ability to disable it. Shows that users don't care. Google knows that if they gave the option, people would disable it because someone told them they should. But the unfortunate truth is we don't know for 100% certainty how users feel because no choice was given.

RobertRoberts 4y ago

Long term it's most definitely _NOT_ better for you. The reasons why are just too nuanced to satisfy a public debate. Thankfully people that understand the very, very real danger to not just the internet, but security, freedom of speech, and host of other very core concepts all human hold dear are at stake if things _like_ AMP replace an open and free internet.

ec109685 4y ago

And the trope about it being slower is false. Yes, if you serve an amp page to someone who happens to come to your site, it’s slower, but if it’s displayed from Google search result page, Google pre-renders the page, making it instant. The Apple News comparison is interesting from the article. Why doesn’t Apple get the hate given Apple News doesn’t just link to mobile web pages instead of articles of their own format?

nerdjon 4y ago
Apple News is a choice for both the publisher and the user. Also its an App, it sending you to a website would not be a great user experience. APM was strong-armed onto publishers and users never had a choice, even though google has long been asked to have an option to enable APM from the user side. Google used their search control to get APM used.
canes123456 4y ago
Users and publishers opt in and out for apple news. Google makes it hard as hell to opt out of it for customers. They also show up higher in google so it not really an option to not support it as a publisher.
- ec109685 4y ago
  There are tens of millions who use Apple News since it’s the default news reading experience everywhere on iOS, so not participating would hurt publishers.
tyingq 4y ago
>Why doesn’t Apple get the hate Because Apple News isn't an effective defacto monopoly in huge spaces like "web search" and "browsers". AMP content gets forced on, for example, Android owners, and it's difficult to avoid. And it was forced on publishers when the net effect of not using it was reduced organic traffic...that's how you got shite stuff like Reddit AMP pages.
- ec109685 4y ago

dundarious 4y ago

All it did was shift who got to collect everything. The amount of surveillance done by ad tech is not good. Google being the central and sole entity doing the same surveillance is probably even less good. And as a user, I hated using AMP pages for UX reasons as well.

superkuh 4y ago

You love it now. If it gains acceptance the results of the increasing centralization and control being given to google and cloudflare will bite you in the medium term. A few megacorps in control will go bad much faster and more completely than tens of thousands of independent human and corporate persons. Yes, "publishers" (corporations) do want to do things that are bad for human persons. But guess what? So do the mega-publishers like google and cloudflare.

dgb23 4y ago

You can also just use an RSS reader, to solve many of these problems for you. In addition: > Harder for publishers to run own code and track you and run more analytics? Awesome. Now it's just Google who tracks you. > Harder for publishers to embed ads? Great. Not for Google. They would also automatically log you in if you visit an AMP page. Make no mistake, this was just an attempt of control. The much more reasonable alternative to incentivize higher performance and less bloat, but let publishers decide how to achieve that. Lighthouse helps to some degree.

jasode 4y ago
>You can also just use an RSS reader, to solve many of these problems for you. You're inserting the typical "you can just ..." tone in your advice as if it's a simple solution but you're overlooking the full context of the parent's post: (1) RSS works better for a known set of urls to pull from. When the parent states that he's randomly clicking on news stories (some being AMP cached pages) from Google search results, that's not really something that RSS can solve because one can't predict the unknown future urls to include in a feeds list. (2) Many publishers (e.g. news sites like NYTimes) that offer RSS do not put the full text and only offer the headline and/or a partial extract.
- dgb23 4y ago
  You're right on both accounts. Should have said it solves some problems. We still want incentives for performant, lightweight websites as I said further down. (Not to say that there aren't any great websites that are not lightweight, but the value they provide outweighs the cost, from the users perspective.) Point being, AMP isn't needed for any of this.

canes123456 4y ago

In practice, amp breaks the web page and makes it hard to move to other parts of the site. You can blame the site owners but at the end of the day the experience of disabling amp and running an ad blocker is dramatically better

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

stetrain 4y ago

If AMP were just a high-performance subset spec of JS/HTML that Google gave a pagerank boost to I think it would be viewed pretty favorably. The main issues seem to be around the caching features, which to allow even simple hit-count analytics requires sending analytics calls through some third party (usually Google). As a site owner you can’t do no-js analytics because you can’t even check server logs for page hit counts. There are also still some weird details where the interaction on those pages (like scrolling) does not always feel native (it isn’t) and sharing the URL sends you to the hosted cache not the author’s site. I’d be all in favor of something inspired by AMP that is just a test of “This page is a simple, fast-loading, no-hijacking web document”

Kalium 4y ago
Speaking only, solely, and specifically as a user... why do I care if the content is in an integrity-checked hosted cache or if the site owner has analytics? Neither is important to the experience of accessing the content. The problem with simple, fast-loading, no-hijacking web documents is that history shows quite clearly that they don't stay that way for long. Every single website owner could adopt that standard today. Every single website owner has had that same chance every day for the past two decades. We're still not there.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Users don't always know what's good for them.
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Speaking solely as as a user, because I don’t want to use Google’s fucking cache just to read a damn web page. And the scrolling sucks. And why the fuck is it so hard to just get the canonical URL for the page? Seriously, if google had been just a little less aggressive about preventing users from leaving their little AMP ecosystem, it might have taken off.
- stetrain 4y ago
  > The problem with simple, fast-loading, no-hijacking web documents is that history shows quite clearly that they don't stay that way for long. Every single website owner could adopt that standard today. Every single website owner has had that same chance every day for the past two decades. We're still not there. They wouldn't be adopting AMP either except Google put their market weight behind it and said you should adopt AMP if you don't want to be punished in search results.