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Some context is given here: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-introduces-9-ticket-to-offset-the-impact-of-the-ukraine-war/a-61788020 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-i

• rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  In the meantime I just paid 200% more for heating oil than it cost me one year ago. And I cannot use this public transport offer. But I am contributing to it with my taxes.
  • seoaeu 4y ago
    In other words, your transportation patterns don’t let you reduce your oil use, so you’re doing your part by paying slightly higher taxes to benefit those who can? That doesn’t seem like a bad thing
    • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      You mean I‘m partially funding their cheap transportation? Where is the money for these cheap tickets coming from? But your comment kinda makes sense. It’s not really worth trying much in Germany. The more one tries, the more one becomes the source of funding for others while not really getting any personal gratification or gain.
      • widerporst 4y ago
        How do you travel and commute? By car? If so, millions of Germans who don't own a care are funding your means of transport.
        • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
          I will keep that in mind next time I am staring at the rear of a diesel bus while stuck in traffic.
          • widerporst 4y ago
            I know you're being facetious, but yes. Public transport is cheaper per person per kilometer than cars. Gasoline and motor vehicle taxes are very low in comparison to the cost of road maintenance and environmental and societal effects of individual transport, so you're indeed profiting off of tax money.
            • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
              To which I’m also contributing by driving myself. Those roads aren’t built for my pleasure of driving to the office. They also serve crucial role in supply chains. In fact, those buses are on exactly on those same roads. The existence of those roads facilities convenient public transportation.
              • akie 4y ago
                These 2.5 billion euros is almost nothing for a country the size of Germany. I mean, it’s 0.1% of the total budget (€1762.4 billion last year). It’s nothing. Are you really getting all huffy & puffy about paying for a scheme that provides transportation to poorer people and helps the environment? And are you the same about all other tiny expenses, or is it just this one in particular.
                • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
                  No, I just said that I paid twice as much as last year for the heating oil and my tax obligations are increasing and this doesn’t benefit everyone. It turned into this discussion.
                • sokoloff 4y ago
      • MauranKilom 4y ago
        > The more one tries, the more one becomes the source of funding for others while not really getting any personal gratification or gain. It's unfortunate that you can't derive any gratification or gain from your more-than-half of the extra money you make when trying more. But it probably won't help to blame it on less wealthy people commuting to work.
        • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
          I’m not blaming anybody. I am simply saying that it’s an advantage which isn’t universal.
          • seoaeu 4y ago
            I could say the same about being wealthy enough not to have to rely on public transportation
      • foepys 4y ago
        Your 30 cent gas discount is funded by all the people not owning cars. Which costs 500 million Euros more than the 9€ ticket by the way. Be grateful for that and stop huffing and puffing all over the comment section with snide comments on how the world is unfair to you.
        • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
          Like that is helping me with heating oil. And mind you, not only me. Everyone renting places, owning places, offices heated with oil will get hit by that. I do not see how a discount on transport for three months is going to help those people. I also have a mother in Germany who I pay the rent for. She's a pensioner with a minimal amount of money. I am very much looking to Nebenkostenabrechnung next year for heating.
      • wreath 4y ago
        You’re exactly right. The German system is setup so that you make use of it only if you are on average or below average income. Anything more is a diminishing return. This is for pension, maternal/paternal leave, health insurance etc. The reasoning being that “so we have more equal society”. Yes equal but there simply is no incentive to progress without being penalized. The lucky ones are those with “old money” or those who prefer to rely on the system instead of themselves.
        • seoaeu 4y ago
          You're proposing cutting government support for the poor so that they'll try harder to escape poverty? Since I'm pretty sure there's already plenty of incentives to not living in poverty
          • wreath 4y ago
            Where exactly did I say that?
            • seoaeu 4y ago
              "there simply is no incentive to progress without being penalized". Perhaps I misunderstood?
              • wreath 4y ago
                Yeah I think you did. Here is an example, maternity leave is 65% of salary but capped at 1800 euros. If you make 6000 a month and want to make use of maternity leave, you have to lower your living standards significantly so you can stat with your child. This would make a lot of sense and fair for someone making ~2800 though. But as a high earner, and a high tax payer, i cannot use this system “feature”.
                • seoaeu 4y ago
                  Presumably you could take the 1800/month and make up the difference with savings? Even with the maternity leave conditions, it is clearly better to be the person making 6000 than 2800. But I still don’t understand your broader point. Mathematically a progressive tax system is going to have high income people pay more taxes than they receive back in government services, to fund the services provided to low/zero income earners
    • ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      In other words, there's a program in place to help people with high prices, that he has to pay into, but doesn't get anything from it, while still being affected by high prices, that he might not be able to afford.
      • locallost 4y ago
        I live in Germany and I also have to pay for the construction of toll free highways and other very expensive car infrastructure. The tax on gas was reduced for the same months in the sommer which is on its own totally ridiculous, but it will also cost over a billion a month. I don't drive so I have nothing to gain from any of that -- but you don't get help from others if you don't help others, so you don't pick and choose what you pay with your taxes.
        • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
          But you do consume stuff transported to your neighborhood by trucks and cars. Maybe you use public transport? That consumes gasoline/diesel and requires infrastructure. Or do you live on home grown food? How's the post at your door every morning? Ambulances? Police? Fire service? Electricians? Packets from Amazon or other MediaMarkt? I don't believe you do not benefit. Ask the people of Ahrweiler what is it like living without that infrastructure.
          • locallost 4y ago
            That's exactly the point, I don't mind that the people have access to that infrastructure if that's all they have, even if I don't personally need it. My inlaws would be dead without their car. You don't get to pay taxes for things you personally need and complain that other people got theirs, which is what you are doing. The infrastructure needed is not the same for goods, and public services compared to tens of millions of people driving, and thus doesn't cost nearly the same. So the point of my post still stands -- I pay for a lot of things I don't need as it is, including the ridiculous gas tax reduction so everybody can pretend it's business as usual that will end up being more expensive than the 9 Euro train ticket.
  • ephbit 4y ago
    At some point in time the whole of society needs to be presented with the true cost of individual lifestyles. And there needs to be a discourse about which lifestyles and life choices should at all and to what degree they should be subsidised by the government and why this is legitimate. There are a whole lot of subsidies that are neither fair nor sustainable and over time we need to transition away from them. This is painful and becoming a little more evident these times but it needs to happen. Letting the price for energy rise is necessary until it'll have become carbon neutral and you're feeling it.
  • reallydontask 4y ago
    >And I cannot use this public transport offer. But I am contributing to it with my taxes. Not all government subsidies, benefits, etc are supposed to help everybody equally, this should not be a hard concept to grasp and yet comments like yours are so common that it makes me think that people don't really understand how taxes and government spending works.