4 ms·

I think it's great, but honestly, placing it at 15€ would have made only a little difference to the consumer, who is already getting a lot for the value, and he

I think it's great, but honestly, placing it at 15€ would have made only a little difference to the consumer, who is already getting a lot for the value, and helped the railway operators a good deal. As a compromise the age of kids who can travel together with their parents for free could have been raised from 6 to 8 years.

Shadonototra 4y ago
> I think it's great, but honestly, placing it at 15€ would have made only a little difference The ticket exist to relieve citizens due to rising energy costs What a nice idea to double the price! i suggest to triple it, so they can make even more profits! Wait, i suggest aligning it to the cost of a similar travel with a car! Are you american by chance? https://www.stoag.de/en/dialog/neuigkeiten/detail/9-euro-ticket.html https://www.stoag.de/en/dialog/neuigkeiten/detail/9-euro-tic... > We support the idea of the traffic light coalition to temporarily relieve not only drivers, but also the millions of public transport commuters in their mobility costs. It is a clear signal for local public transport as an efficient, climate-friendly and already inexpensive alternative to the car. The industry is working on a technical and entrepreneurial solution in the interests of passengers. The ticket is to be launched nationwide on June 1st.
- mtmail 4y ago
  > Are you american by chance? That was unneccessary. _Microft shared several German news articles in the past.
  - darrenf 4y ago
    Surely the question was aimed at @qwertox, not @_Microft?
  - _Microft 4y ago
    I don't think that the message was addressed at me but I agree that it was unnecessarily personal. You inferred my nationality correctly btw ;)
    - GavinMcG 4y ago
      I'm an American who has lived in Germany, and it didn't seem like a personal attack to me. It's a reasonable thing to wonder when someone espouses a profits-first view in response to a social program.
      - _Microft 4y ago
        OK, I hadn't considered that. Thanks for the perspective!
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  > Wait, i suggest aligning it to the cost of a similar travel with a car! I would wish they actually align their normal prices with a car. It's absurd that it's cheaper for two people to travel from Karlsruhe to Frankfurt by car, than to take an ICE train. And that applies to almost any train connection inside a Germany. No wonder people like their cars here.
  - lbriner 4y ago
    Same in the UK although unfortunately, the per-person cost is roughly linear on the railway and not in a car that will only need slightly more fuel per extra person. I guess the only way round this is that the per-person cost should be so much cheaper on the train that a car only makes sense with, say, 4 passengers. The thing is, most people already own the car so they don't consider tax/servicing as part of the cost of travel whereas on a train, this is all added to the ticket and the servicing is pretty extreme on the railways.
  - freeflight 4y ago
    The secret is to order your ticket ahead of the travel and not to go for flex tickets, that way it's possible to get a massive discount and even travel first class ICE very affordably. For example, Nürnberg - Berlin can cost up to 127€ for second class ticket, if you buy the ticket the same day you need it. Buy the ticket, for the same connection, 2 weeks in advance, and suddenly its only 39,90€ for second class and 53,90€ for first class.
- qwertox 4y ago
  As an example, the 1-month-ticket for Stuttgart for two zones is 92,20€ [0]. For those affected by inflation, the reduction from 90 to 15€ would already be noticeable, the additional 6€ would be neglectible to the consumer in comparison to the already offered discount (not to mention that these new tickets can be used in the entire country). And those who will now leave their car in the garage will probably be saving even more. At least in my case it was always cheaper to use public transport to go to the city, at least if I also considered the parking cost. This for a 1-day ticket, which already costs a bit over 6€. [0] https://www.vvs.de/tickets/zeittickets-abo-polygo/monatsticket-jedermann/ https://www.vvs.de/tickets/zeittickets-abo-polygo/monatstick...
  - drakonka 4y ago
    Why? Presumably they took into account their own financial situation when setting this price. Why would you want an organization to try and claw a few _more_ euros out of people when they've already agreed on 9€? I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from in terms of the purpose of this suggestion.
- wwwwasmistake 4y ago
  Maybe this time it's because of rising energy cost, but I remember there was very same deal for short time, little more than 10 years ago when I was visiting there. If one feels adventurous, I can highly recommend buying this ticket.
- Tenoke 4y ago
  >What a nice idea to double the price! i suggest to triple it, so they can make even more profits! Pretty sure they wouldn't be making any profit at 15e or 27e either.
WA 4y ago
Exactly the opposite. It should've been 0€, because then you: * don't have to sell tickets at all * don't have to check tickets in trains and reduce costs The overhead of selling tickets with the new price points might actually eat up all what's left of profits.
- k__ 4y ago
  How much does checking tickets cost?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    As a rule of thumb: anytime you see a human doing a manual task, it's expensive.
  - fridek 4y ago
    Germany has about 1000 railway locomotives operating 40k runs a day. A conductor job pays on average 50k€/yr. Most trains I've seen have more than one conductor, and you need to plan for weekends, shifts, time off, etc. but the lower bound should be easy to agree on 50M€/yr or 12.5M€ for the duration of the program? Then there is the entire infra to sell tickets online, in machines and in person. At the same time there are about 2 million rail customers a day, so the 9€ ticket will bring 18M€. I'd say they probably break even. Math is fun, but the entire point is a bit moot. Germany is a civilised country and if you laid off the entire staff for three summer months with no pay, the union would eat you for breakfast.
    - Tenoke 4y ago
      >Most trains I've seen have more than one conductor At least in Berlin which this covers most trains/buses/trams have 0 people checking and there's a few people going on random ones to occasionally check so the ratio here is probably 1 worker to 50+ vehicles.
    - dagw 4y ago
      Most trains still need conductors even if they're not checking tickets. Having them check tickets when they're already there won't cost anything extra.
phh 4y ago
Uh this offer is paid by the railway operators, not by the government?
- chmod775 4y ago
  No. It's paid for by the government and expected to cost around 2.5 billion EUR. It's part of this: https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardartikel/Themen/Schlaglichter/Entlastungen/schnelle-spuerbare-entlastungen.html https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardar...
  - phh 4y ago
    Thanks. Then I don't understand commenter's "helped the railway operators a good deal"
archi42 4y ago
This is a matter of perspective. The ticket is not aimed solely at people with median income of a tech worker (or the typical HN crowd), but help out the general populace as a whole. Including those who can not even afford a car. Now I think when the times comes (3 month from now) for the program to run out, we might see discussions about continuing it at a price that makes it a more sustainable, permanent offer. But that's my opinion speaking (I wouldn't even mind if it was mandatory like back when I was attending university, as long as it is affordable for people with low to lowest incomes).
- Tenoke 4y ago
  > more sustainable, permanent offer Seems pretty unlikely that they'll be able to after a 3 month period of operating at a loss (for the government) and likely having more issues due to increased usage.
  - archi42 4y ago
    My crystal ball is broken. I think there is a good chance that what you say will happen. But collecting the data in this nation-wide experiment is already quite useful when deciding on future policy. Until now it was always "we believe" or "this doesn't fit our agenda" or "this is socialism". Plus, if it is sufficiently popular and if the obstacles can be identified and overcome, then why not? If the new administration wants to reconnect with the people then employing some positive populism is quite nice. //edit: As I said, I didn't mind paying for the mandatory students ticket (most universities have that), even when I eventually stopped using. I'm in the "make public transportation free" camp, and think this is a good step in that direction; even if we end up with "affordable for all" instead of "free". But as I said, that's opinion, not knowledge.
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    It is a political decision, whether the government wants to pay the costs out of the federal budget. If the government is serious about CO2 reduction and also shifting commute traffic from cars to public transport, this might be an surprisingly cheap option. As the high energy costs also mean increased tax revenue, it might not even be a large load for the budget (and compared to many other things, spending like €10B/year on public transport isn't really much anyway).
dmurray 4y ago
Isn't the taxpayer paying the shortfall, rather than the "railway operators"?
- _ph_ 4y ago
  Right, it is tax-funded. Don't ask me how exactly they assign the tax money to the train companies, but probably they get a fixed amount per ticket sold, which would be another reason why it is important to "sell" those tickets.

Shadonototra 4y ago

> I think it's great, but honestly, placing it at 15€ would have made only a little difference The ticket exist to relieve citizens due to rising energy costs What a nice idea to double the price! i suggest to triple it, so they can make even more profits! Wait, i suggest aligning it to the cost of a similar travel with a car! Are you american by chance? https://www.stoag.de/en/dialog/neuigkeiten/detail/9-euro-ticket.html https://www.stoag.de/en/dialog/neuigkeiten/detail/9-euro-tic... > We support the idea of the traffic light coalition to temporarily relieve not only drivers, but also the millions of public transport commuters in their mobility costs. It is a clear signal for local public transport as an efficient, climate-friendly and already inexpensive alternative to the car. The industry is working on a technical and entrepreneurial solution in the interests of passengers. The ticket is to be launched nationwide on June 1st.

mtmail 4y ago
> Are you american by chance? That was unneccessary. _Microft shared several German news articles in the past.
- darrenf 4y ago
  Surely the question was aimed at @qwertox, not @_Microft?
- _Microft 4y ago
  I don't think that the message was addressed at me but I agree that it was unnecessarily personal. You inferred my nationality correctly btw ;)
  - GavinMcG 4y ago
    I'm an American who has lived in Germany, and it didn't seem like a personal attack to me. It's a reasonable thing to wonder when someone espouses a profits-first view in response to a social program.
    - _Microft 4y ago
      OK, I hadn't considered that. Thanks for the perspective!
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
> Wait, i suggest aligning it to the cost of a similar travel with a car! I would wish they actually align their normal prices with a car. It's absurd that it's cheaper for two people to travel from Karlsruhe to Frankfurt by car, than to take an ICE train. And that applies to almost any train connection inside a Germany. No wonder people like their cars here.
- lbriner 4y ago
  Same in the UK although unfortunately, the per-person cost is roughly linear on the railway and not in a car that will only need slightly more fuel per extra person. I guess the only way round this is that the per-person cost should be so much cheaper on the train that a car only makes sense with, say, 4 passengers. The thing is, most people already own the car so they don't consider tax/servicing as part of the cost of travel whereas on a train, this is all added to the ticket and the servicing is pretty extreme on the railways.
- freeflight 4y ago
  The secret is to order your ticket ahead of the travel and not to go for flex tickets, that way it's possible to get a massive discount and even travel first class ICE very affordably. For example, Nürnberg - Berlin can cost up to 127€ for second class ticket, if you buy the ticket the same day you need it. Buy the ticket, for the same connection, 2 weeks in advance, and suddenly its only 39,90€ for second class and 53,90€ for first class.
qwertox 4y ago
As an example, the 1-month-ticket for Stuttgart for two zones is 92,20€ [0]. For those affected by inflation, the reduction from 90 to 15€ would already be noticeable, the additional 6€ would be neglectible to the consumer in comparison to the already offered discount (not to mention that these new tickets can be used in the entire country). And those who will now leave their car in the garage will probably be saving even more. At least in my case it was always cheaper to use public transport to go to the city, at least if I also considered the parking cost. This for a 1-day ticket, which already costs a bit over 6€. [0] https://www.vvs.de/tickets/zeittickets-abo-polygo/monatsticket-jedermann/ https://www.vvs.de/tickets/zeittickets-abo-polygo/monatstick...
- drakonka 4y ago
  Why? Presumably they took into account their own financial situation when setting this price. Why would you want an organization to try and claw a few _more_ euros out of people when they've already agreed on 9€? I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from in terms of the purpose of this suggestion.
wwwwasmistake 4y ago
Maybe this time it's because of rising energy cost, but I remember there was very same deal for short time, little more than 10 years ago when I was visiting there. If one feels adventurous, I can highly recommend buying this ticket.
Tenoke 4y ago
>What a nice idea to double the price! i suggest to triple it, so they can make even more profits! Pretty sure they wouldn't be making any profit at 15e or 27e either.

WA 4y ago

Exactly the opposite. It should've been 0€, because then you: * don't have to sell tickets at all * don't have to check tickets in trains and reduce costs The overhead of selling tickets with the new price points might actually eat up all what's left of profits.

k__ 4y ago
How much does checking tickets cost?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  As a rule of thumb: anytime you see a human doing a manual task, it's expensive.
- fridek 4y ago
  Germany has about 1000 railway locomotives operating 40k runs a day. A conductor job pays on average 50k€/yr. Most trains I've seen have more than one conductor, and you need to plan for weekends, shifts, time off, etc. but the lower bound should be easy to agree on 50M€/yr or 12.5M€ for the duration of the program? Then there is the entire infra to sell tickets online, in machines and in person. At the same time there are about 2 million rail customers a day, so the 9€ ticket will bring 18M€. I'd say they probably break even. Math is fun, but the entire point is a bit moot. Germany is a civilised country and if you laid off the entire staff for three summer months with no pay, the union would eat you for breakfast.
  - Tenoke 4y ago
    >Most trains I've seen have more than one conductor At least in Berlin which this covers most trains/buses/trams have 0 people checking and there's a few people going on random ones to occasionally check so the ratio here is probably 1 worker to 50+ vehicles.
  - dagw 4y ago
    Most trains still need conductors even if they're not checking tickets. Having them check tickets when they're already there won't cost anything extra.

phh 4y ago

Uh this offer is paid by the railway operators, not by the government?

chmod775 4y ago
No. It's paid for by the government and expected to cost around 2.5 billion EUR. It's part of this: https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardartikel/Themen/Schlaglichter/Entlastungen/schnelle-spuerbare-entlastungen.html https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardar...
- phh 4y ago
  Thanks. Then I don't understand commenter's "helped the railway operators a good deal"

archi42 4y ago

This is a matter of perspective. The ticket is not aimed solely at people with median income of a tech worker (or the typical HN crowd), but help out the general populace as a whole. Including those who can not even afford a car. Now I think when the times comes (3 month from now) for the program to run out, we might see discussions about continuing it at a price that makes it a more sustainable, permanent offer. But that's my opinion speaking (I wouldn't even mind if it was mandatory like back when I was attending university, as long as it is affordable for people with low to lowest incomes).

Tenoke 4y ago
> more sustainable, permanent offer Seems pretty unlikely that they'll be able to after a 3 month period of operating at a loss (for the government) and likely having more issues due to increased usage.
- archi42 4y ago
  My crystal ball is broken. I think there is a good chance that what you say will happen. But collecting the data in this nation-wide experiment is already quite useful when deciding on future policy. Until now it was always "we believe" or "this doesn't fit our agenda" or "this is socialism". Plus, if it is sufficiently popular and if the obstacles can be identified and overcome, then why not? If the new administration wants to reconnect with the people then employing some positive populism is quite nice. //edit: As I said, I didn't mind paying for the mandatory students ticket (most universities have that), even when I eventually stopped using. I'm in the "make public transportation free" camp, and think this is a good step in that direction; even if we end up with "affordable for all" instead of "free". But as I said, that's opinion, not knowledge.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  It is a political decision, whether the government wants to pay the costs out of the federal budget. If the government is serious about CO2 reduction and also shifting commute traffic from cars to public transport, this might be an surprisingly cheap option. As the high energy costs also mean increased tax revenue, it might not even be a large load for the budget (and compared to many other things, spending like €10B/year on public transport isn't really much anyway).

dmurray 4y ago

Isn't the taxpayer paying the shortfall, rather than the "railway operators"?

_ph_ 4y ago
Right, it is tax-funded. Don't ask me how exactly they assign the tax money to the train companies, but probably they get a fixed amount per ticket sold, which would be another reason why it is important to "sell" those tickets.