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Is Java Really Losing Popularity Among Developers?

15 points by jcwentz 15y ago

Joakal 15y ago
Job ads at indeed: http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=Java%2C+C%2B%2B%2C+C%23%2C+Visual+Basic%2C+Perl%2C+C%2C+PHP%2C+Objective-C%2C+Python%2C+JavaScript&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=Java%2C+C%2B%... (Click Relative to see which are increasing compared to others more easily) Doesn't seem to be losing popularity among employers.
- chrisledet 15y ago
  That's because their apps are written in Java and they need people to maintain them. Java isn't going anywhere for a while.
  - apedley 15y ago
    I also find that jobs for Java are generally about maintaining or expanding old systems. The majority of jobs with newer companies or even newer projects at larger companies tend to involve C#, at least in my city.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - super_mario 15y ago
    That's true only if by "apps" you mean web only. Java is not the most popular language/technology to turn to unless you are facing amazingly large scale or performance is critical. For startups developing in Java is probably not a great idea, because startups need to respond to change fast and get things up and running fast, and languages like Python, Ruby, some kind of LISP are way better at that. You can always re-write your application in Java/Scala if performance/scale becomes an issue (a lot of startups dream about having those kinds of problems :D).
    - chrisledet 15y ago
      I actually worked for a startup who wanted who wanted their apps written in Java because it "scales". To this day they don't realize hardware is cheaper than deveopers.
      - ComputerGuru 15y ago
        Hardware isn't cheaper than developers when working on massive scale. See this: http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/C-and-Beyond-2011-Herb-Sutter-Why-C http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/C-and-Beyond-2011-Herb-Sutter...
        chrisledet 15y ago
        Thanks for the video. I'll take a look.
      - super_mario 15y ago
        Read the well documented example of Twitter. This is the kind of scale I'm talking about.
        stickhandle 15y ago
        twitter and the like is a total edge case
    - qw 15y ago
      I personally like Java a lot and would use it in a startup. It's solid and easy to get good performance out of. It also has a huge amount of open source libraries. But I wouldn't necessarily use it for everything. Python / Ruby has good frameworks for the presentation layer of a web app. The perfect combination would be a dynamic language for the web server that calls a java based web service for most of the functionality (Jersey rocks)
stickhandle 15y ago
Java is the "hammer" in the metaphorical IT toolbox. Sure, niche and very useful tools are in the toolbox too, and all have their place, but ... to stretch the metaphor a little further, no toolbox is complete without a hammer. <sidenote>to any real developer, popularity is an irrelevant metric</sidenote>
- swah 15y ago
  How could popularity be an irrelevant metric? Why you know the languages that you know and not the other 99%?
  - stickhandle 15y ago
    popularity doesn't matter - it's about the task + environment (if its not, then your doing it wrong)
city41 15y ago
How often do developers get to truly choose the language they use? Developers usually go where the jobs are. There are a lot of Java systems out there. Doesn't necessarily mean Java is or isn't a "popular" language. I'd be more interested if there is any data on how many newly started projects are using Java compared to other environments.
- cubicle67 15y ago
  How often do developers get to truly choose the language they use? Every day There's absolutely nothing stopping any developer from learning other skills and changing jobs. I was an enterprise dev that taught myself Ruby in the evenings until I had enough skill to move away from the enterprise world. I've been making a living from Ruby coding for just over 3 years now (probably worth noting that I'm almost 40 and have 4 kids). Pay is slightly less, but work satisfaction is so much higher is't a joke. Seriously, your current employer might not let you change, but you don't have to stay with them forever. It's your life, not theirs [Edited to add: I see comment here about job ads. What I discovered early on is that in the Ruby world, and probably Python et al, most jobs are got via reputation or mailing lists. pretty much never on mainstream job boards]
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    'Seriously, your current employer might not let you change, but you don't have to stay with them forever.' And as we've seen with a lot of companies, they're certainly not going to stay with you forever.
  - city41 15y ago
    There's absolutely nothing stopping any developer from learning other skills and changing jobs. Sure, that works to an extent. I was a .NET developer and now I work in Ruby and JavaScript. But if I really had my druthers I'd be writing games for a living. But we can't all work for Valve. So it still remains that for many developers they take what they can get. Some aren't talented enough to get the job they really want. Others have other obligations that prevent them (such as families, geography, the economy, etc). So it still remains that many people code in Java because there are large, entrenched systems written in Java that need maintaining. I of course have no research to support this, but something tells me most developers -- especially passionate ones -- would not choose to work in Java over all other possibilities in 2011.
uriel 15y ago
Java is the new COBOL.
stickhandle 15y ago
According to http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... still #1 in usage in a virtual dead heat with C. 4x usage of Python. 11x usage of Ruby. Its a silly bit of naval gazing akin to ... Is Blue Really Losing Popularity Among Painters?
rbanffy 15y ago
I don't think I'll base my choice of language for the next project on how popular it is among developers.
- manojlds 15y ago
  And doesn't even mention Ruby
- swah 15y ago
  WDYM?
- djb_hackernews 15y ago
  It certainly matters though, right?
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    Popularity is a factor, but, among the 20 or so top languages it's hard to find one that's not "popular enough".
manojlds 15y ago
What is more interesting is how much Objective-C has grown since 2009.
skeptical 15y ago
Javascript have had a massive popularity explosion yet the graph doesn't show any sign of it. This kind of metrics has limited value. Not only popularity is not an absolute thing, it's also difficult to measure. Us, hacker news readers, have fun with our javascript, coffesecript, ruby, etc. projects. But if you're in the corporate world you need to pull the heavy guns, not the good looking ones. Many are saying tat java is the new cobol, that's a good metaphor IMO. And if it is, it's not going to go anywhere. As for me, I wouldn't mind continuing firing up eclipse every day and proceed with my daily usage of java for the next 5-10 years.
cesar 15y ago
I do think Java is losing popularity. And in my mind Java lost a lot of reputation when Sun was bought by Oracle. But I see programming languages as just means to an end. For me popularity is not as important as other things to consider like maintainability, ramp-up time, etc. If a developer can choose what to code on, he should choose the programming language that he feels comfortable with, and one in which he can get the job done in the best possible way and with the least amount of resources.

15 points by jcwentz 15y ago

Job ads at indeed: http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=Java%2C+C%2B%2B%2C+C%23%2C+Visual+Basic%2C+Perl%2C+C%2C+PHP%2C+Objective-C%2C+Python%2C+JavaScript&l= http://www.indeed.com/jobanalytics/jobtrends?q=Java%2C+C%2B%... (Click Relative to see which are increasing compared to others more easily) Doesn't seem to be losing popularity among employers.

chrisledet 15y ago
That's because their apps are written in Java and they need people to maintain them. Java isn't going anywhere for a while.
- apedley 15y ago
  I also find that jobs for Java are generally about maintaining or expanding old systems. The majority of jobs with newer companies or even newer projects at larger companies tend to involve C#, at least in my city.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- super_mario 15y ago
  That's true only if by "apps" you mean web only. Java is not the most popular language/technology to turn to unless you are facing amazingly large scale or performance is critical. For startups developing in Java is probably not a great idea, because startups need to respond to change fast and get things up and running fast, and languages like Python, Ruby, some kind of LISP are way better at that. You can always re-write your application in Java/Scala if performance/scale becomes an issue (a lot of startups dream about having those kinds of problems :D).
  - chrisledet 15y ago
    I actually worked for a startup who wanted who wanted their apps written in Java because it "scales". To this day they don't realize hardware is cheaper than deveopers.
    - ComputerGuru 15y ago
      Hardware isn't cheaper than developers when working on massive scale. See this: http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/C-and-Beyond-2011-Herb-Sutter-Why-C http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/C-and-Beyond-2011-Herb-Sutter...
      - chrisledet 15y ago
        Thanks for the video. I'll take a look.
    - super_mario 15y ago
      Read the well documented example of Twitter. This is the kind of scale I'm talking about.
      - stickhandle 15y ago
        twitter and the like is a total edge case
  - qw 15y ago
    I personally like Java a lot and would use it in a startup. It's solid and easy to get good performance out of. It also has a huge amount of open source libraries. But I wouldn't necessarily use it for everything. Python / Ruby has good frameworks for the presentation layer of a web app. The perfect combination would be a dynamic language for the web server that calls a java based web service for most of the functionality (Jersey rocks)

stickhandle 15y ago

Java is the "hammer" in the metaphorical IT toolbox. Sure, niche and very useful tools are in the toolbox too, and all have their place, but ... to stretch the metaphor a little further, no toolbox is complete without a hammer. <sidenote>to any real developer, popularity is an irrelevant metric</sidenote>

swah 15y ago
How could popularity be an irrelevant metric? Why you know the languages that you know and not the other 99%?
- stickhandle 15y ago
  popularity doesn't matter - it's about the task + environment (if its not, then your doing it wrong)

city41 15y ago

How often do developers get to truly choose the language they use? Developers usually go where the jobs are. There are a lot of Java systems out there. Doesn't necessarily mean Java is or isn't a "popular" language. I'd be more interested if there is any data on how many newly started projects are using Java compared to other environments.

cubicle67 15y ago
How often do developers get to truly choose the language they use? Every day There's absolutely nothing stopping any developer from learning other skills and changing jobs. I was an enterprise dev that taught myself Ruby in the evenings until I had enough skill to move away from the enterprise world. I've been making a living from Ruby coding for just over 3 years now (probably worth noting that I'm almost 40 and have 4 kids). Pay is slightly less, but work satisfaction is so much higher is't a joke. Seriously, your current employer might not let you change, but you don't have to stay with them forever. It's your life, not theirs [Edited to add: I see comment here about job ads. What I discovered early on is that in the Ruby world, and probably Python et al, most jobs are got via reputation or mailing lists. pretty much never on mainstream job boards]
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  'Seriously, your current employer might not let you change, but you don't have to stay with them forever.' And as we've seen with a lot of companies, they're certainly not going to stay with you forever.
- city41 15y ago
  There's absolutely nothing stopping any developer from learning other skills and changing jobs. Sure, that works to an extent. I was a .NET developer and now I work in Ruby and JavaScript. But if I really had my druthers I'd be writing games for a living. But we can't all work for Valve. So it still remains that for many developers they take what they can get. Some aren't talented enough to get the job they really want. Others have other obligations that prevent them (such as families, geography, the economy, etc). So it still remains that many people code in Java because there are large, entrenched systems written in Java that need maintaining. I of course have no research to support this, but something tells me most developers -- especially passionate ones -- would not choose to work in Java over all other possibilities in 2011.

uriel 15y ago

Java is the new COBOL.

stickhandle 15y ago

According to http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... still #1 in usage in a virtual dead heat with C. 4x usage of Python. 11x usage of Ruby. Its a silly bit of naval gazing akin to ... Is Blue Really Losing Popularity Among Painters?

rbanffy 15y ago

I don't think I'll base my choice of language for the next project on how popular it is among developers.

manojlds 15y ago
And doesn't even mention Ruby
swah 15y ago
WDYM?
djb_hackernews 15y ago
It certainly matters though, right?
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Popularity is a factor, but, among the 20 or so top languages it's hard to find one that's not "popular enough".

manojlds 15y ago

What is more interesting is how much Objective-C has grown since 2009.

skeptical 15y ago

Javascript have had a massive popularity explosion yet the graph doesn't show any sign of it. This kind of metrics has limited value. Not only popularity is not an absolute thing, it's also difficult to measure. Us, hacker news readers, have fun with our javascript, coffesecript, ruby, etc. projects. But if you're in the corporate world you need to pull the heavy guns, not the good looking ones. Many are saying tat java is the new cobol, that's a good metaphor IMO. And if it is, it's not going to go anywhere. As for me, I wouldn't mind continuing firing up eclipse every day and proceed with my daily usage of java for the next 5-10 years.

cesar 15y ago

I do think Java is losing popularity. And in my mind Java lost a lot of reputation when Sun was bought by Oracle. But I see programming languages as just means to an end. For me popularity is not as important as other things to consider like maintainability, ramp-up time, etc. If a developer can choose what to code on, he should choose the programming language that he feels comfortable with, and one in which he can get the job done in the best possible way and with the least amount of resources.