4 ms·

I agree with your general sentiment but as a motorcyclist myself, what can I do to ensure that the cars surrounding me (windows up, listening to music, carrying

by rychco 4y ago

I agree with your general sentiment but as a motorcyclist myself, what can I do to ensure that the cars surrounding me (windows up, listening to music, carrying out conversation, probably fiddling with a phone) are aware of my existence without making noise? The greatest threat to responsible motorcyclists are unaware drivers. An electric motorcycle might as well be invisible amongst ordinary traffic.

rendall 4y ago
If you're saying "It is too dangerous to ride motorcycles without making lots of noise" then you're saying "It's too dangerous to ride motorcycles". Full stop. Any other answer is turning a "you" problem into an "everyone" problem.
- jjav 4y ago
  That's not a great answer because as a society we should be encouraging by all means the use of transportation that takes very little space (both while moving and while parked) and is very efficient. Pushing even more people into giant SUVs isn't good.
  - rendall 4y ago
    > Pushing even more people into giant SUVs isn't good. Yeah, see, that's not a good-faith response. The choice is not "ride noisy motorcycles" or "everyone rides giant SUVs"
tayo42 4y ago
Is this only an issue when lane splitting? If I can see other cars doing normal things I can see motorcycles. Can't you just not lane split and don't sit in people's blind spots. Which drivers should already do
tshaddox 4y ago
I can’t believe it needs to be said but the answer is sight. The sense of sight is how vehicle drivers are able to navigate and avoid collisions with other vehicles.
- jjav 4y ago
  While I want to agree, it's also true that in a very high proportion of incidents where cars hits cyclist or motorcyclists, the excuse is always "I didn't see them".
ironmagma 4y ago
There are perfectly unobtrusive sounds electric motorcycles can (and do) make such as beeping.
stouset 4y ago
Further, this “problem of our own making” is us taking on greater personal risk at a net overall reduction of risk for road users as a whole. It reminds me of the situation with cyclists where people like to complain about their “dangerous” behavior. But almost nothing a cyclist does on the road will undo the net reduction in risk to road users as a whole simply by choosing to ride a bicycle instead of operating a car. I’m not saying that motorcycles should be unmuffled. I run a stock exhaust and do my best to idle through residential areas, and I too hate any vehicles that rattle windows and set car alarms off when they pass by. I guess my point is that if I were necromancies-king, I’d try to find a way to get all users of the road to experience empathy for others on the road and particularly for more vulnerable ones whose mere existence makes roads safer for everyone.
- rendall 4y ago
  Please don't make "riding motorcycle" out to be some kind of heroic, selfless act. I don't ride a motorcycle. I also don't have a car, by choice. I use busses, bicycles and the occasional taxi, and make sure I live within walking distance of essentials. And yet, even I don't tell myself lies about how things are much better on the road because of my choices. If I ever do choose to ride a motorcycle, I will keep it quiet and accept the risks like an adult. If you tell yourself that you're selflessly helping humanity and then only "do my best" not to make noise in residential areas, you're a problem. Just admit, to yourself at least, you like to piss people off - or worse maybe you just don't care. This entire post is full of people talking about how people like you are a problem, and yet you tell yourself that you're actually a hero. Look inward.
  - stouset 4y ago
    > Please don't make "riding motorcycle" out to be some kind of heroic, selfless act. I'm not. I'm simply saying it's kind of crappy to tell some road users that they should just "live with the consequences of their decisions" when those decisions benefit you and everyone else on the road. Every motorcycle on the road is a net increase in safety, a net reduction in traffic, and a net reduction in CO2 emissions compared to that same person choosing to drive a car. Perhaps we should be encouraging these types of choices instead of being belligerent toward the people who choose them, regardless of the motivation behind those choices. > If you tell yourself that you're selflessly helping humanity and then only "do my best" not to make noise in residential areas, you're a problem. Just admit, to yourself at least, you like to piss people off - or worse maybe you just don't care. > > This entire post is full of people talking about how people like you are a problem, and yet you tell yourself that you're actually a hero. Look inward. What, exactly, would you like me to do differently? I'm being 100% serious. As I said earlier, I ride with stock pipes. The noise levels of exhaust pipes are regulated by the state of California where I reside, and exhausts must be approved by the state. The loud bikes you hear are inevitably aftermarket exhausts that are illegal, but that doesn't stop people from installing them and riding with them. I eagerly await the day when the people choosing to do this are caught, fined, and have the offending hardware confiscated. As I also said, I do my best to idle through residential areas. Sometimes this strictly isn't possible, such as when there's a hill. Would you prefer I hop off and push my motorcycle? Hitch it to a passing car? Something else? Please be concrete. What am I doing wrong that you believe I could do better? Maybe, just maybe, I'm not an asshole who likes to piss people off. Maybe I'm just a guy who enjoys riding bicycles and motorcycles, who does his best to ride in a way that doesn't inflict negative externalities on others, and who is frustrated by the complete lack of empathy and outright hostility shown by people like yourself who directly benefit from my choices. I go out of my way to yield to pedestrians and cyclists at intersections where drivers happily blow through the crosswalks they're trying to cross. I wait for them to cross at intersections when they have the right of way even when they expect me not to, because they have the right of way. When I notice bicycles getting passed too closely, I'll ride behind them and offset slightly to ensure passing traffic gives them the clearance they're legally entitled to. I'm not saying this because I consider myself a hero, I'm saying this because I have been the cyclist in this situation or the pedestrian in this situation and therefore I have empathy for them. I am saying this because I am clearly not the asshole you've decided I am based on a caricature you've created in your head based off a single comment. > Look inward. People are always happy to find some member of an outgroup to blame for society's ills while ignoring those of their ingroup. Let's all take a moment to look inward, shall we?
McDev 4y ago
Before covid I would commute daily in London to work filtering (lane splitting) through traffic. You operate on the assumption that they don't see / hear you and you need to anticipate their movements, and be much more switched on. I can almost guarantee no one has ever heard my bike from a car until I've passed by it but it's irrelevant I find as cars try to kill me even when they do see me. Biking is just more dangerous and there comes a point where you are only as safe as you are lucky.
robgibbons 4y ago
If you read the Hurt Report, most motorcycle-involved collisions happen from the front of the bike, with the car making an unprotected left across the bike's lane. Increasing visual conspicuity of the front of your bike (and attire) is the best way to avoid being hit. Exhaust noise is not a safety feature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_R...
okokwhatever 4y ago
amen
mellavora 4y ago
> what can I do to ensure that the cars surrounding me (windows up, listening to music, carrying out conversation, probably fiddling with a phone) are aware of my existence without making noise? Your implicit assumption is that if you make enough noise, you will pop their "windows up, listening to music, fiddling with a phone" filter bubble. And that noise is the most efficient way to do this. I wonder how much noise that would take, esp in more modern cars with good soundproofing? Or perhaps other methods might be more effective?

by rychco 4y ago

rendall 4y ago

If you're saying "It is too dangerous to ride motorcycles without making lots of noise" then you're saying "It's too dangerous to ride motorcycles". Full stop. Any other answer is turning a "you" problem into an "everyone" problem.

jjav 4y ago
That's not a great answer because as a society we should be encouraging by all means the use of transportation that takes very little space (both while moving and while parked) and is very efficient. Pushing even more people into giant SUVs isn't good.
- rendall 4y ago
  > Pushing even more people into giant SUVs isn't good. Yeah, see, that's not a good-faith response. The choice is not "ride noisy motorcycles" or "everyone rides giant SUVs"

tayo42 4y ago

Is this only an issue when lane splitting? If I can see other cars doing normal things I can see motorcycles. Can't you just not lane split and don't sit in people's blind spots. Which drivers should already do

tshaddox 4y ago

I can’t believe it needs to be said but the answer is sight. The sense of sight is how vehicle drivers are able to navigate and avoid collisions with other vehicles.

jjav 4y ago
While I want to agree, it's also true that in a very high proportion of incidents where cars hits cyclist or motorcyclists, the excuse is always "I didn't see them".

ironmagma 4y ago

There are perfectly unobtrusive sounds electric motorcycles can (and do) make such as beeping.

stouset 4y ago

Further, this “problem of our own making” is us taking on greater personal risk at a net overall reduction of risk for road users as a whole. It reminds me of the situation with cyclists where people like to complain about their “dangerous” behavior. But almost nothing a cyclist does on the road will undo the net reduction in risk to road users as a whole simply by choosing to ride a bicycle instead of operating a car. I’m not saying that motorcycles should be unmuffled. I run a stock exhaust and do my best to idle through residential areas, and I too hate any vehicles that rattle windows and set car alarms off when they pass by. I guess my point is that if I were necromancies-king, I’d try to find a way to get all users of the road to experience empathy for others on the road and particularly for more vulnerable ones whose mere existence makes roads safer for everyone.

rendall 4y ago
Please don't make "riding motorcycle" out to be some kind of heroic, selfless act. I don't ride a motorcycle. I also don't have a car, by choice. I use busses, bicycles and the occasional taxi, and make sure I live within walking distance of essentials. And yet, even I don't tell myself lies about how things are much better on the road because of my choices. If I ever do choose to ride a motorcycle, I will keep it quiet and accept the risks like an adult. If you tell yourself that you're selflessly helping humanity and then only "do my best" not to make noise in residential areas, you're a problem. Just admit, to yourself at least, you like to piss people off - or worse maybe you just don't care. This entire post is full of people talking about how people like you are a problem, and yet you tell yourself that you're actually a hero. Look inward.
- stouset 4y ago
  > Please don't make "riding motorcycle" out to be some kind of heroic, selfless act. I'm not. I'm simply saying it's kind of crappy to tell some road users that they should just "live with the consequences of their decisions" when those decisions benefit you and everyone else on the road. Every motorcycle on the road is a net increase in safety, a net reduction in traffic, and a net reduction in CO2 emissions compared to that same person choosing to drive a car. Perhaps we should be encouraging these types of choices instead of being belligerent toward the people who choose them, regardless of the motivation behind those choices. > If you tell yourself that you're selflessly helping humanity and then only "do my best" not to make noise in residential areas, you're a problem. Just admit, to yourself at least, you like to piss people off - or worse maybe you just don't care. > > This entire post is full of people talking about how people like you are a problem, and yet you tell yourself that you're actually a hero. Look inward. What, exactly, would you like me to do differently? I'm being 100% serious. As I said earlier, I ride with stock pipes. The noise levels of exhaust pipes are regulated by the state of California where I reside, and exhausts must be approved by the state. The loud bikes you hear are inevitably aftermarket exhausts that are illegal, but that doesn't stop people from installing them and riding with them. I eagerly await the day when the people choosing to do this are caught, fined, and have the offending hardware confiscated. As I also said, I do my best to idle through residential areas. Sometimes this strictly isn't possible, such as when there's a hill. Would you prefer I hop off and push my motorcycle? Hitch it to a passing car? Something else? Please be concrete. What am I doing wrong that you believe I could do better? Maybe, just maybe, I'm not an asshole who likes to piss people off. Maybe I'm just a guy who enjoys riding bicycles and motorcycles, who does his best to ride in a way that doesn't inflict negative externalities on others, and who is frustrated by the complete lack of empathy and outright hostility shown by people like yourself who directly benefit from my choices. I go out of my way to yield to pedestrians and cyclists at intersections where drivers happily blow through the crosswalks they're trying to cross. I wait for them to cross at intersections when they have the right of way even when they expect me not to, because they have the right of way. When I notice bicycles getting passed too closely, I'll ride behind them and offset slightly to ensure passing traffic gives them the clearance they're legally entitled to. I'm not saying this because I consider myself a hero, I'm saying this because I have been the cyclist in this situation or the pedestrian in this situation and therefore I have empathy for them. I am saying this because I am clearly not the asshole you've decided I am based on a caricature you've created in your head based off a single comment. > Look inward. People are always happy to find some member of an outgroup to blame for society's ills while ignoring those of their ingroup. Let's all take a moment to look inward, shall we?

McDev 4y ago

Before covid I would commute daily in London to work filtering (lane splitting) through traffic. You operate on the assumption that they don't see / hear you and you need to anticipate their movements, and be much more switched on. I can almost guarantee no one has ever heard my bike from a car until I've passed by it but it's irrelevant I find as cars try to kill me even when they do see me. Biking is just more dangerous and there comes a point where you are only as safe as you are lucky.

robgibbons 4y ago

If you read the Hurt Report, most motorcycle-involved collisions happen from the front of the bike, with the car making an unprotected left across the bike's lane. Increasing visual conspicuity of the front of your bike (and attire) is the best way to avoid being hit. Exhaust noise is not a safety feature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_R...

okokwhatever 4y ago

amen

mellavora 4y ago

> what can I do to ensure that the cars surrounding me (windows up, listening to music, carrying out conversation, probably fiddling with a phone) are aware of my existence without making noise? Your implicit assumption is that if you make enough noise, you will pop their "windows up, listening to music, fiddling with a phone" filter bubble. And that noise is the most efficient way to do this. I wonder how much noise that would take, esp in more modern cars with good soundproofing? Or perhaps other methods might be more effective?