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the people that got "us" into this mess are the ones who initiated a genocidal war of territorial conquest in modern times (after repeatedly lying that they wou

the people that got "us" into this mess are the ones who initiated a genocidal war of territorial conquest in modern times (after repeatedly lying that they would) not coincidentally, they are also the only ones who can get "us" out of it, by withdrawing – the Ukrainian people have seen the rape, torture, and executions that result from allowing genocidal russian troops to control a single square foot of Ukrainian land, and have concluded that death is a better fate than that which awaits surrendering it tl;dr you're going to have a hard time convincing Ukrainians to trust russia, but you are sure welcome to try

Guthur 4y ago
Please, stop this moral high ground rhetorical hypocrisy of the highest order. The US has had no qualms about invading countries or applying sanctions that harm innocent people. There are no good guys. People will all do terrible things for "the greater good", there is no worldly greater good from these soulless bureaucratic monoliths of state hood. They will set targets and strive for them irrespective of the human cost. Nazi german showed the way with their welfare state for the German people and everyone has followed suit. If you want to stop the russians then declare war don't sit on the side lines trying to manipulate from a safe distance using the likes of sanctions or arming militias that we once all agreed were actual German Nazi evangelists, look at the iconography it's not even in doubt. It's not hard to convince populations to do any thing, the pandemic should have taught us all that. Edit: For the record i'm not justifying or demonising either side, do what you got to do, but know that i don't buy any holier than thou BS from either side. But put your money where your mouth is, if Russia must be stop do then do it, declare war or park a carrier group or two in the black sea, enforce no flyzones or guarantee shipping.
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  please, stop this moral equivalency rhetoric this is not the U.S. opposing russia, but the world - literally the majority of all countries the rest of your post is whataboutism that fails to justify russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest against Ukraine and Ukrainians, both of which russia believes should not exist, period the world hears russia's farcical pretexts of "denazification" and recognizes it as a cynical ploy to preempt the obvious comparison of russia to the last country which attempted a genocidal war of territorial conquest in Europe if you want to stop russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest in Ukraine, speak out against russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest in Ukraine as for international aid to Ukraine, lethal and not, that is what the Ukrainian people ask for, and no amount of russian whinging and concern trolling allegedly on their behalf, or ridiculous "come at me bro"-esque macho encouragement for more countries to formally declare war, will prevent the world from answering their pleas against russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest >Edit: For the record i'm not justifying or demonising either side Edit: yes, that is the problem. one side is perpetrating a genocide, the other a victim of it. As Desmond Tutu said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor". That is your choice here.
  - Guthur 4y ago
    If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? If they're so together why did Turkey block Sweden and Finland joining Nato. If the unifying petrodollar still binds us all why is Saudi considering Yuan. If they had any sort of plan that would save Ukrainians why is it taking months to enact?
    - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
      >If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? Are you asking this in good faith, as in, you do not know, and wish to learn? Or did you mean to say, "I think that a majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and I submit as evidence that russian energy sales are not zero" ?
      - Guthur 4y ago
        Ah no. Maybe I'm just stupid, so please explain to me how all the European countries that are so united in solidatary with Ukraine can square the round hole of also paying Russia vast sums of money for energy?
        ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        explain to you because you do not know, and wish to learn, and thus you are asking in good faith? or "explain", as in you think the majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and you would like to advance this claim? I want to be clear here, I am all for sharing knowledge, so if you need an explanation because you don't know, and don't just plan to argue, please say so and I will share all I can, what little it may be
        Guthur 4y ago
        So you have no interest in explaining to me how EU countries (Germany etc) paying Russia for energy helps Ukraine? I'm quite serious, I don't know how paying Russia helps Ukraine, or are they not paying for energy? maybe I am ill informed. And please don't come back with misdirection, either answer the question or lets leave it like that because it's a waste of both our time.
- happymellon 4y ago
  This is literally the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Let me sum up this idiotic comment. 1. Millions protested against all the invasions by various countries. 2. Because they protested, but were ignored they can't be against this one also? No one is falling for your whataboutism. It is terrible when counties invade others regardless of who is doing the invasion. Stop being such a terrible sock-puppet.
  - Guthur 4y ago
    Glad you think it's stupid. At least you thought about it :) Honestly if you want to think your country is whiter than white and the Russians, Iraqis, Taliban, Gaddafi, ISIS, Iranians or whoever are the big evil and you must do whatever it takes to support stopping them being part of the world then that's up to you. But i don't support that view and find it hypocritical. I don't believe in the Liberal Idealogy nor do i see any good in a US led global hegemony and at the same time i've no connection to the Rus people so for me it's very clear that I would struggle to fight for either side. BTW you do also know that whataboutism goes both ways because you are literally doing exactly the same thing. Frankly whataboutism is utter nonsense to hid hypocrisy.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      I never said that my country hasn't done bad things. I have protested the Tories, and I have always voted against them because I know they are bad people. I know that the majority of people in the UK have also voted against them and their policies. Your entire point is completely nonsensical. Where on earth did I do "whataboutism"? You literally said that people cannot be against one invasion because someone else invaded, which they were probably against as well.
haerra 4y ago
As a side note, I find the language you are using strange. I do not know if it's my perspective of the world being different than yours, but I'll try to explain. In my perspective, genocide is a very, very strong word. Hitler killed 6 million Jews, as he literally wanted them exterminated. Now, crime is a crime, none should be defended nor downsized. But the primary goal behind that genocide was extermination. Do you claim that Russia is trying to exterminate Ukrainians? Or you are using it just to point out the war crimes that the Russian army is did?
- silversmith 4y ago
  Not who you replied to, but yes, I am claiming that Russia is trying to exterminate Ukrainians. From the (admittedly, rambling) speeches of their top command about how Ukraine is not a real country and intentional shelling of civilian structures, to mass murder of civilians being uncovered after russian forces are pushed back and abduction of children, there is no way you can call the goal of russian forces anything but extermination of a nation. Of course, the official body count is not yet past 6 million, and UN paperwork calling it genocide is not yet signed. So yeah, you're right, it's not genocide, just murder on industrial scale. For the sake of disclosure, I'm from Latvia, a country that shook off the russian yoke in 90s, and my own mother has chilling memories of red army acting the same animalistic way as what we hear from Ukraine today. "Bias" or "experience" - choose your own label.
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  Yes, russia is engaged in many actions that make clear that they are perpetrating a genocide, such as: - literally saying Ukraine should not exist - saying Ukrainians aren't a real people, just russians - planning to solve "The Ukraine Question" (yes, phrased by the Kremlin just as another dictator phrased "The Jewish Question") - planning to end Ukraine as a country and split up the land between themselves and other countries (maps have even been found among russian forces in Ukraine illustrating this) - mass executions to rid Ukrainian land of Ukrainians (see Bucha for just 1 example) - mass shelling of civilian targets (homes, etc.) in cities to rid Ukrainian land of Ukrainians - destroying and stealing grain from Ukraine to starve Ukrainians (russia has a history of doing this in Ukraine, see: Holodomor) - refusing and attacking international food aid, mefical aid, and rescue to Ukrainian civilians - announcing Ukrainians who fled the fighting will have their property and homes given to pro-russian fighters in territory russia controls - shooting and shelling civilians who try to evacuate - sending Ukrainians in areas russia controls to "filtration camps" where those who show support for Ukraine are executed or forcibly deported to russia or russian controlled land - destroying Ukrainian cultural landmarks - forcing Ukrainians in russian controlled territory to not speak Ukrainian the list goes longer, but russia has not at all tried to hide it, simply watch what the state propagandists and putin himself say and have said of Ukraine as a sovereign state

Guthur 4y ago

Please, stop this moral high ground rhetorical hypocrisy of the highest order. The US has had no qualms about invading countries or applying sanctions that harm innocent people. There are no good guys. People will all do terrible things for "the greater good", there is no worldly greater good from these soulless bureaucratic monoliths of state hood. They will set targets and strive for them irrespective of the human cost. Nazi german showed the way with their welfare state for the German people and everyone has followed suit. If you want to stop the russians then declare war don't sit on the side lines trying to manipulate from a safe distance using the likes of sanctions or arming militias that we once all agreed were actual German Nazi evangelists, look at the iconography it's not even in doubt. It's not hard to convince populations to do any thing, the pandemic should have taught us all that. Edit: For the record i'm not justifying or demonising either side, do what you got to do, but know that i don't buy any holier than thou BS from either side. But put your money where your mouth is, if Russia must be stop do then do it, declare war or park a carrier group or two in the black sea, enforce no flyzones or guarantee shipping.

ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
please, stop this moral equivalency rhetoric this is not the U.S. opposing russia, but the world - literally the majority of all countries the rest of your post is whataboutism that fails to justify russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest against Ukraine and Ukrainians, both of which russia believes should not exist, period the world hears russia's farcical pretexts of "denazification" and recognizes it as a cynical ploy to preempt the obvious comparison of russia to the last country which attempted a genocidal war of territorial conquest in Europe if you want to stop russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest in Ukraine, speak out against russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest in Ukraine as for international aid to Ukraine, lethal and not, that is what the Ukrainian people ask for, and no amount of russian whinging and concern trolling allegedly on their behalf, or ridiculous "come at me bro"-esque macho encouragement for more countries to formally declare war, will prevent the world from answering their pleas against russia's genocidal war of territorial conquest >Edit: For the record i'm not justifying or demonising either side Edit: yes, that is the problem. one side is perpetrating a genocide, the other a victim of it. As Desmond Tutu said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor". That is your choice here.
- Guthur 4y ago
  If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? If they're so together why did Turkey block Sweden and Finland joining Nato. If the unifying petrodollar still binds us all why is Saudi considering Yuan. If they had any sort of plan that would save Ukrainians why is it taking months to enact?
  - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    >If everyone is so united in opposition why are they still buying the oil and gas (paying in Rubles)? Are you asking this in good faith, as in, you do not know, and wish to learn? Or did you mean to say, "I think that a majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and I submit as evidence that russian energy sales are not zero" ?
    - Guthur 4y ago
      Ah no. Maybe I'm just stupid, so please explain to me how all the European countries that are so united in solidatary with Ukraine can square the round hole of also paying Russia vast sums of money for energy?
      - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        explain to you because you do not know, and wish to learn, and thus you are asking in good faith? or "explain", as in you think the majority of countries are not united in opposition to russia, and you would like to advance this claim? I want to be clear here, I am all for sharing knowledge, so if you need an explanation because you don't know, and don't just plan to argue, please say so and I will share all I can, what little it may be
        Guthur 4y ago
        So you have no interest in explaining to me how EU countries (Germany etc) paying Russia for energy helps Ukraine? I'm quite serious, I don't know how paying Russia helps Ukraine, or are they not paying for energy? maybe I am ill informed. And please don't come back with misdirection, either answer the question or lets leave it like that because it's a waste of both our time.
happymellon 4y ago
This is literally the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Let me sum up this idiotic comment. 1. Millions protested against all the invasions by various countries. 2. Because they protested, but were ignored they can't be against this one also? No one is falling for your whataboutism. It is terrible when counties invade others regardless of who is doing the invasion. Stop being such a terrible sock-puppet.
- Guthur 4y ago
  Glad you think it's stupid. At least you thought about it :) Honestly if you want to think your country is whiter than white and the Russians, Iraqis, Taliban, Gaddafi, ISIS, Iranians or whoever are the big evil and you must do whatever it takes to support stopping them being part of the world then that's up to you. But i don't support that view and find it hypocritical. I don't believe in the Liberal Idealogy nor do i see any good in a US led global hegemony and at the same time i've no connection to the Rus people so for me it's very clear that I would struggle to fight for either side. BTW you do also know that whataboutism goes both ways because you are literally doing exactly the same thing. Frankly whataboutism is utter nonsense to hid hypocrisy.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    I never said that my country hasn't done bad things. I have protested the Tories, and I have always voted against them because I know they are bad people. I know that the majority of people in the UK have also voted against them and their policies. Your entire point is completely nonsensical. Where on earth did I do "whataboutism"? You literally said that people cannot be against one invasion because someone else invaded, which they were probably against as well.

haerra 4y ago

As a side note, I find the language you are using strange. I do not know if it's my perspective of the world being different than yours, but I'll try to explain. In my perspective, genocide is a very, very strong word. Hitler killed 6 million Jews, as he literally wanted them exterminated. Now, crime is a crime, none should be defended nor downsized. But the primary goal behind that genocide was extermination. Do you claim that Russia is trying to exterminate Ukrainians? Or you are using it just to point out the war crimes that the Russian army is did?

silversmith 4y ago
Not who you replied to, but yes, I am claiming that Russia is trying to exterminate Ukrainians. From the (admittedly, rambling) speeches of their top command about how Ukraine is not a real country and intentional shelling of civilian structures, to mass murder of civilians being uncovered after russian forces are pushed back and abduction of children, there is no way you can call the goal of russian forces anything but extermination of a nation. Of course, the official body count is not yet past 6 million, and UN paperwork calling it genocide is not yet signed. So yeah, you're right, it's not genocide, just murder on industrial scale. For the sake of disclosure, I'm from Latvia, a country that shook off the russian yoke in 90s, and my own mother has chilling memories of red army acting the same animalistic way as what we hear from Ukraine today. "Bias" or "experience" - choose your own label.
ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
Yes, russia is engaged in many actions that make clear that they are perpetrating a genocide, such as: - literally saying Ukraine should not exist - saying Ukrainians aren't a real people, just russians - planning to solve "The Ukraine Question" (yes, phrased by the Kremlin just as another dictator phrased "The Jewish Question") - planning to end Ukraine as a country and split up the land between themselves and other countries (maps have even been found among russian forces in Ukraine illustrating this) - mass executions to rid Ukrainian land of Ukrainians (see Bucha for just 1 example) - mass shelling of civilian targets (homes, etc.) in cities to rid Ukrainian land of Ukrainians - destroying and stealing grain from Ukraine to starve Ukrainians (russia has a history of doing this in Ukraine, see: Holodomor) - refusing and attacking international food aid, mefical aid, and rescue to Ukrainian civilians - announcing Ukrainians who fled the fighting will have their property and homes given to pro-russian fighters in territory russia controls - shooting and shelling civilians who try to evacuate - sending Ukrainians in areas russia controls to "filtration camps" where those who show support for Ukraine are executed or forcibly deported to russia or russian controlled land - destroying Ukrainian cultural landmarks - forcing Ukrainians in russian controlled territory to not speak Ukrainian the list goes longer, but russia has not at all tried to hide it, simply watch what the state propagandists and putin himself say and have said of Ukraine as a sovereign state