3 ms·

In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. I was just watching a clip of Martin Scorsese talking about how he grap

by lc9er 4y ago

In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. I was just watching a clip of Martin Scorsese talking about how he grapples with this in his films. Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. He talks about struggling with the notion that these people that inflicted so much pain would be given their eternal reward, alongside those who were good, just for going through the motions.

em-bee 4y ago
well one problem is that as human beings we are not able to judge if someone is truly seeking forgiveness for their actions or just pretending to. only god can do that. therefore as humans we must assume that they are genuine and leave it to god to deliver the actual judgment. i am not familiar with martin scorsese, so i don't know why he doesn't recognize that difference. i am also not familiar enough with the bible or catholicism to know why that difference is not more clear in their teachings.
RobertRoberts 4y ago
Yep, many religions have a "get out of jail free card" idea, but it's not biblical. Jesus was pretty straight about many people being rejected.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. This is false. Asking is not enough. Asking is one part of the observable, outward sign, but that (and the whole associated rite) is less important than the spiritual conversion which is required. (The rite is “normatively” required, but the conversion is “absolutely” required.) > Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. If they outwardly observe the rites without inward spiritual conversion, the doctrine of the Church is that they absolutely will not be forgiven. To the extent that there may have ever been doubt that this was the doctrine (and certainly complaints about at least the implication that it was not were central in the Protestant Reformation), it was unequivocally articulated in the Council of Trent, so the room for doubt on it has been closed for at a minimum nearly half a millennium. Scorsese is certainly a great filmmaker, but if your report is accurate, he’s not very well informed on Catholic theology, with an attitude that reflects what one might expect of someone who has simply witnessed the rites without any education about their meaning.

by lc9er 4y ago

em-bee 4y ago

well one problem is that as human beings we are not able to judge if someone is truly seeking forgiveness for their actions or just pretending to. only god can do that. therefore as humans we must assume that they are genuine and leave it to god to deliver the actual judgment. i am not familiar with martin scorsese, so i don't know why he doesn't recognize that difference. i am also not familiar enough with the bible or catholicism to know why that difference is not more clear in their teachings.

RobertRoberts 4y ago

Yep, many religions have a "get out of jail free card" idea, but it's not biblical. Jesus was pretty straight about many people being rejected.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. This is false. Asking is not enough. Asking is one part of the observable, outward sign, but that (and the whole associated rite) is less important than the spiritual conversion which is required. (The rite is “normatively” required, but the conversion is “absolutely” required.) > Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. If they outwardly observe the rites without inward spiritual conversion, the doctrine of the Church is that they absolutely will not be forgiven. To the extent that there may have ever been doubt that this was the doctrine (and certainly complaints about at least the implication that it was not were central in the Protestant Reformation), it was unequivocally articulated in the Council of Trent, so the room for doubt on it has been closed for at a minimum nearly half a millennium. Scorsese is certainly a great filmmaker, but if your report is accurate, he’s not very well informed on Catholic theology, with an attitude that reflects what one might expect of someone who has simply witnessed the rites without any education about their meaning.