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I think our narcissism is largely a product of a culture obsessed with individual identity, individual success and ego. One of the best pieces I ever read on HN

I think our narcissism is largely a product of a culture obsessed with individual identity, individual success and ego. One of the best pieces I ever read on HN was by a Shopify engineer just a month ago about why he serves in the British Yeomanry. (https://chrisseaton.com/army/ https://chrisseaton.com/army/) "Being in the Army also grounds me in reality and in my community. The tech world can be a relatively narrow cross-section of society. When I spend time with the Army I interact with the full spectrum of my local community. My squadron has nurses, carpenters, architects, police officers, unemployed people, veterinarians, warehouse workers, tree surgeons, railway engineers, pilots, firefighters. I get to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of economic situations, with a variety of outlooks[...] More than just interacting with a cross-section of society, it means building a very high level of trust and depending on each other. When we’re in the field there’s absolutely nowhere to hide, with no privacy and no time-off, and you’ll need to manage to get along. There’s a big taboo of being ‘jack’ and not looking after each other or serving yourself before others." I had a similar experience when I had to do military service. I don't think there's a better cure for narcissism than getting out of your head and comfort zone, doing something for and with other people in the real world. We should remember where the word 'narcissism' comes from. From Narcissus staring into his own reflection. So sitting in your room, reflecting on how totally not narcissistic you are is never going to be a solution.

bladegash 4y ago
Think there is also a certain level of self-policing that happens in the military as well, which does not exactly reward those high in ego/self-centered behavior. One thing I appreciate about my friends from the military, over a decade later even, is I can trust they’ll call me out when I deserve it (and vice versa).
heavyset_go 4y ago
I hate pathologizing, I whine a lot about it on HN, but for some people, narcissism is pathological and no amount of service towards others will give them perspective. I once knew a self-described narcissist who was proud of the fact. At one point, doing volunteer work benefited them, possibly for college credit or something, I forget. Their lesson from serving in a soup kitchen? "The homeless people didn't thank me enough, they're all so greedy and should be more thankful that I'm giving them food instead of doing something better with my time."
- PeterisP 4y ago
  The service (and traditional community) solution to narcissism doesn't seem to based on the expectation that they'll change by doing that service; but rather having the circumstances highlight that behavior and solving the narcissism problem in the community either by kicking the narcissists out or by forcing them to change with credible threats of violence for continuing such behavior.
ozarker 4y ago
Is there any kind of parallel for this kind of experience. I’ve always thought the rigidity and discipline of military life would suit me well. This is another reason why I would love to join up. I have a family and a career now though and joining up would be a selfish decision
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  There are weird pseudo-bootcamps that exist in the US that you can sign up for, but I imagine they're just as unregulated and harmful as "wilderness therapy" companies are.
  - User23 4y ago
    Project Appleseed[1] is reputable, but it’s mainly marksmanship and American history, not playing soldier in the woods. I’d be very cautious about joining any kind of “militia” because even though there probably are well intentioned people that want to serve their communities, most are honeypots full of law enforcement and informants. I think there may be some state militias still around that aren’t national guard too. I vaguely recall something about Florida reviving its militia. Edit: re:Florida[2]. [1] https://appleseedinfo.org/about/ https://appleseedinfo.org/about/ [2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/florida-state-guard-desantis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/florida-state-guard-...
happythebob 4y ago
- RobertRoberts 4y ago
  But some religions are based on the idea that you won't get to live forever if you are a narcissist.
  - lc9er 4y ago
    In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. I was just watching a clip of Martin Scorsese talking about how he grapples with this in his films. Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. He talks about struggling with the notion that these people that inflicted so much pain would be given their eternal reward, alongside those who were good, just for going through the motions.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      well one problem is that as human beings we are not able to judge if someone is truly seeking forgiveness for their actions or just pretending to. only god can do that. therefore as humans we must assume that they are genuine and leave it to god to deliver the actual judgment. i am not familiar with martin scorsese, so i don't know why he doesn't recognize that difference. i am also not familiar enough with the bible or catholicism to know why that difference is not more clear in their teachings.
    - RobertRoberts 4y ago
      Yep, many religions have a "get out of jail free card" idea, but it's not biblical. Jesus was pretty straight about many people being rejected.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. This is false. Asking is not enough. Asking is one part of the observable, outward sign, but that (and the whole associated rite) is less important than the spiritual conversion which is required. (The rite is “normatively” required, but the conversion is “absolutely” required.) > Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. If they outwardly observe the rites without inward spiritual conversion, the doctrine of the Church is that they absolutely will not be forgiven. To the extent that there may have ever been doubt that this was the doctrine (and certainly complaints about at least the implication that it was not were central in the Protestant Reformation), it was unequivocally articulated in the Council of Trent, so the room for doubt on it has been closed for at a minimum nearly half a millennium. Scorsese is certainly a great filmmaker, but if your report is accurate, he’s not very well informed on Catholic theology, with an attitude that reflects what one might expect of someone who has simply witnessed the rites without any education about their meaning.
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
I loved that article, and I think it's a great point of reference for this current discussion here. Thanks for that.

bladegash 4y ago

Think there is also a certain level of self-policing that happens in the military as well, which does not exactly reward those high in ego/self-centered behavior. One thing I appreciate about my friends from the military, over a decade later even, is I can trust they’ll call me out when I deserve it (and vice versa).

heavyset_go 4y ago

I hate pathologizing, I whine a lot about it on HN, but for some people, narcissism is pathological and no amount of service towards others will give them perspective. I once knew a self-described narcissist who was proud of the fact. At one point, doing volunteer work benefited them, possibly for college credit or something, I forget. Their lesson from serving in a soup kitchen? "The homeless people didn't thank me enough, they're all so greedy and should be more thankful that I'm giving them food instead of doing something better with my time."

PeterisP 4y ago
The service (and traditional community) solution to narcissism doesn't seem to based on the expectation that they'll change by doing that service; but rather having the circumstances highlight that behavior and solving the narcissism problem in the community either by kicking the narcissists out or by forcing them to change with credible threats of violence for continuing such behavior.

ozarker 4y ago

Is there any kind of parallel for this kind of experience. I’ve always thought the rigidity and discipline of military life would suit me well. This is another reason why I would love to join up. I have a family and a career now though and joining up would be a selfish decision

heavyset_go 4y ago
There are weird pseudo-bootcamps that exist in the US that you can sign up for, but I imagine they're just as unregulated and harmful as "wilderness therapy" companies are.
- User23 4y ago
  Project Appleseed[1] is reputable, but it’s mainly marksmanship and American history, not playing soldier in the woods. I’d be very cautious about joining any kind of “militia” because even though there probably are well intentioned people that want to serve their communities, most are honeypots full of law enforcement and informants. I think there may be some state militias still around that aren’t national guard too. I vaguely recall something about Florida reviving its militia. Edit: re:Florida[2]. [1] https://appleseedinfo.org/about/ https://appleseedinfo.org/about/ [2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/florida-state-guard-desantis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/florida-state-guard-...

happythebob 4y ago

RobertRoberts 4y ago
But some religions are based on the idea that you won't get to live forever if you are a narcissist.
- lc9er 4y ago
  In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. I was just watching a clip of Martin Scorsese talking about how he grapples with this in his films. Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. He talks about struggling with the notion that these people that inflicted so much pain would be given their eternal reward, alongside those who were good, just for going through the motions.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    well one problem is that as human beings we are not able to judge if someone is truly seeking forgiveness for their actions or just pretending to. only god can do that. therefore as humans we must assume that they are genuine and leave it to god to deliver the actual judgment. i am not familiar with martin scorsese, so i don't know why he doesn't recognize that difference. i am also not familiar enough with the bible or catholicism to know why that difference is not more clear in their teachings.
  - RobertRoberts 4y ago
    Yep, many religions have a "get out of jail free card" idea, but it's not biblical. Jesus was pretty straight about many people being rejected.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > In Catholicism, at least, as long as you ask forgiveness, you get your ticket to heaven. This is false. Asking is not enough. Asking is one part of the observable, outward sign, but that (and the whole associated rite) is less important than the spiritual conversion which is required. (The rite is “normatively” required, but the conversion is “absolutely” required.) > Many of his characters are monsters, but they observe the rites, so according to the church, they should be forgiven. If they outwardly observe the rites without inward spiritual conversion, the doctrine of the Church is that they absolutely will not be forgiven. To the extent that there may have ever been doubt that this was the doctrine (and certainly complaints about at least the implication that it was not were central in the Protestant Reformation), it was unequivocally articulated in the Council of Trent, so the room for doubt on it has been closed for at a minimum nearly half a millennium. Scorsese is certainly a great filmmaker, but if your report is accurate, he’s not very well informed on Catholic theology, with an attitude that reflects what one might expect of someone who has simply witnessed the rites without any education about their meaning.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

I loved that article, and I think it's a great point of reference for this current discussion here. Thanks for that.