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What is "the west" exactly? Japan? New Zealand? Finland? Tunisia? A better term would be liberal democracies, but that wouldn't have quite the same "both sides

What is "the west" exactly? Japan? New Zealand? Finland? Tunisia? A better term would be liberal democracies, but that wouldn't have quite the same "both sides are the same" ring to it, would it? Russia isn't waging an economic war against anyone. A dictator tried to invade his democratic neighbour, he failed, and now the other democraties are cutting him out of their club

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
I agree Putin is some kind of dictator, but are you really calling Ukraine democracy? Then you can also call North Korea democracy.
- jandrese 4y ago
  There is some speculation that the liberal democratic rumblings from Zelenski are what forced Putin to act. I have no illusions that a country with deeply rooted corruption issues like Ukraine can turn on a dime, but he was at least voicing support for the idea. If he managed to root out some of the corruption then Putin would lose the ability to puppet the state entirely, and that's a slippery slope to becoming part of Europe and being lost to Russia forever.
- anonAndOn 4y ago
  >are you really calling Ukraine democracy Isn't it strange how Russian money kept trying to prevent it from becoming so and yet, it kept becoming one?
- boardwaalk 4y ago
  Uhm, yes? They elected a comedian with no political experience or ties for f's sake. But I suppose that was some sort of rigged election or he's just a figurehead or something?
  - t-3 4y ago
    Uh, he's banned all opposition parties. Where's the democracy? He was a direct employee of a Ukrainian billionaire oligarch, plenty of ties, just check the Pandora Papers...
    - batter 4y ago
      What are you talking about? He didn't ban opposition, only pro-russian (and that is just small part of opposition).
      - t-3 4y ago
        Yeah? One of those parties had nearly 10% of the seats in the Ukrainian parliament. That's not a democratic move.
        ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        are you backpedaling from "banned ALL opposition parties"? it's unclear whether or not you still believe this is the case
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    Election where major opposition parties were banned? A democratic society where 40+% of population is not allowed to use their own language? When opposition leaders get arrested? Where almost a 100 people were publicly burned alive, and still no one is punished? Where right wing extremists / neonazi paramilitaries are incorporated in an official army and given a licence to kill, as documented by OSCE multiple times in eastern part of the country? And all that happened before this war. Just that they now fight Russians doesn't mean they are democracy, they are just a useful enemy of an enemy. And the list goes on and on, although only one of the mentioned things would be enough to consider such a country as non-democratic at least. I think corruption and a rule of oligarch is the least problem in a country like that.
paganel 4y ago
Mostly the US, with some UK mixed in. > A better term would be liberal democracies If you think "liberal democracies" still carries the same positive vibe across the world that it used to some years ago you are in for a big surprise. > "both sides are the same" ring to it They are definitely not the same, they have obviously different values. Again, Putin has said as much, he's the one fighting for a multi-polar world with multi-polar values, so to speak. I think the same holds for Xi, in China.
- mistermann 4y ago
  > If you think "liberal democracies" still carries the same positive vibe across the world that it used to some years ago you are in for a big surprise. Agree, I would state it as "liberal" "democracies" - this is an opinion of course, but I think if one was to fairly but critically perform an in-depth evaluation, things are not as lovely as they are described to the masses.
- namdnay 4y ago
  > Mostly the US, with some UK mixed in. That's the opposition to Russia? Hardly, Ukraine's neighbours are doing far more than anyone in London or Washington. > They are definitely not the same, they have obviously different values Yes one of them is democracy, the other is dictatorships. One is good, the other is bad. Refreshingly, some things in life are simple. > he's the one fighting for a multi-polar world with multi-polar values if he wanted a multi-polar world he'd have let ukraine be a pole. no, he wants a russian world, with himself at the top of it
  - paganel 4y ago
    Again, the Russians have said as much what they want. What they understand by "multi-polar world" is the US (and its allies), Russia, China, maybe India, maybe some other regional thingie, like South America/Mercosur maybe (I think by this point they're already branding the EU under "US and its allies", that wasn't always the case, especially around 2003-2005 when Germany and France were against the US intervention in Iraq). Yes, they would want Ukraine under their sphere of influence, that one has been also made pretty clear by them ever since the USSR was broken up.
dredmorbius 4y ago
The Economist is cagey about the definition, but by context it works out to "America and its allies" (where "America" is "The United States of America". See e.g., "How the West should respond to China’s search for foreign outposts" (https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/05/07/how-the-west-should-respond-to-chinas-search-for-foreign-outposts https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/05/07/how-the-west-sh...), which uses the phrase "America and its allies" three times. The US, NATO, NORAD, ANZUS, SEATO, and specific alliances such as the US-Japan alliance, Mutual Defense Treaty between the United States and the Republic of Korea, and the like, would likely be included. In the context of Ukraine and this article, probably the Common Security and Defence Policy (CDSP) of the EU as well.
cameronh90 4y ago
The West ~= the "Liberal International Order"
selimthegrim 4y ago
Tunisia is a) dependent on Russian and Ukrainian wheat b) about to strike itself off the democracy list As a friend of mine told NPR: “It’s not that Tunisia’s democracy is threatened. Tunisia’s democracy has been shot in the head.”

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

I agree Putin is some kind of dictator, but are you really calling Ukraine democracy? Then you can also call North Korea democracy.

jandrese 4y ago
There is some speculation that the liberal democratic rumblings from Zelenski are what forced Putin to act. I have no illusions that a country with deeply rooted corruption issues like Ukraine can turn on a dime, but he was at least voicing support for the idea. If he managed to root out some of the corruption then Putin would lose the ability to puppet the state entirely, and that's a slippery slope to becoming part of Europe and being lost to Russia forever.
anonAndOn 4y ago
>are you really calling Ukraine democracy Isn't it strange how Russian money kept trying to prevent it from becoming so and yet, it kept becoming one?
boardwaalk 4y ago
Uhm, yes? They elected a comedian with no political experience or ties for f's sake. But I suppose that was some sort of rigged election or he's just a figurehead or something?
- t-3 4y ago
  Uh, he's banned all opposition parties. Where's the democracy? He was a direct employee of a Ukrainian billionaire oligarch, plenty of ties, just check the Pandora Papers...
  - batter 4y ago
    What are you talking about? He didn't ban opposition, only pro-russian (and that is just small part of opposition).
    - t-3 4y ago
      Yeah? One of those parties had nearly 10% of the seats in the Ukrainian parliament. That's not a democratic move.
      - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        are you backpedaling from "banned ALL opposition parties"? it's unclear whether or not you still believe this is the case
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  Election where major opposition parties were banned? A democratic society where 40+% of population is not allowed to use their own language? When opposition leaders get arrested? Where almost a 100 people were publicly burned alive, and still no one is punished? Where right wing extremists / neonazi paramilitaries are incorporated in an official army and given a licence to kill, as documented by OSCE multiple times in eastern part of the country? And all that happened before this war. Just that they now fight Russians doesn't mean they are democracy, they are just a useful enemy of an enemy. And the list goes on and on, although only one of the mentioned things would be enough to consider such a country as non-democratic at least. I think corruption and a rule of oligarch is the least problem in a country like that.

paganel 4y ago

Mostly the US, with some UK mixed in. > A better term would be liberal democracies If you think "liberal democracies" still carries the same positive vibe across the world that it used to some years ago you are in for a big surprise. > "both sides are the same" ring to it They are definitely not the same, they have obviously different values. Again, Putin has said as much, he's the one fighting for a multi-polar world with multi-polar values, so to speak. I think the same holds for Xi, in China.

mistermann 4y ago
> If you think "liberal democracies" still carries the same positive vibe across the world that it used to some years ago you are in for a big surprise. Agree, I would state it as "liberal" "democracies" - this is an opinion of course, but I think if one was to fairly but critically perform an in-depth evaluation, things are not as lovely as they are described to the masses.
namdnay 4y ago
> Mostly the US, with some UK mixed in. That's the opposition to Russia? Hardly, Ukraine's neighbours are doing far more than anyone in London or Washington. > They are definitely not the same, they have obviously different values Yes one of them is democracy, the other is dictatorships. One is good, the other is bad. Refreshingly, some things in life are simple. > he's the one fighting for a multi-polar world with multi-polar values if he wanted a multi-polar world he'd have let ukraine be a pole. no, he wants a russian world, with himself at the top of it
- paganel 4y ago
  Again, the Russians have said as much what they want. What they understand by "multi-polar world" is the US (and its allies), Russia, China, maybe India, maybe some other regional thingie, like South America/Mercosur maybe (I think by this point they're already branding the EU under "US and its allies", that wasn't always the case, especially around 2003-2005 when Germany and France were against the US intervention in Iraq). Yes, they would want Ukraine under their sphere of influence, that one has been also made pretty clear by them ever since the USSR was broken up.

dredmorbius 4y ago

The Economist is cagey about the definition, but by context it works out to "America and its allies" (where "America" is "The United States of America". See e.g., "How the West should respond to China’s search for foreign outposts" (https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/05/07/how-the-west-should-respond-to-chinas-search-for-foreign-outposts https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/05/07/how-the-west-sh...), which uses the phrase "America and its allies" three times. The US, NATO, NORAD, ANZUS, SEATO, and specific alliances such as the US-Japan alliance, Mutual Defense Treaty between the United States and the Republic of Korea, and the like, would likely be included. In the context of Ukraine and this article, probably the Common Security and Defence Policy (CDSP) of the EU as well.

cameronh90 4y ago

The West ~= the "Liberal International Order"

selimthegrim 4y ago

Tunisia is a) dependent on Russian and Ukrainian wheat b) about to strike itself off the democracy list As a friend of mine told NPR: “It’s not that Tunisia’s democracy is threatened. Tunisia’s democracy has been shot in the head.”