8 ms·

This is interesting: over the last several months, a friend has been running NixOS on a Framework and has been told by Framework employees that they can’t help

This is interesting: over the last several months, a friend has been running NixOS on a Framework and has been told by Framework employees that they can’t help him with Linux kernel issues because he’s using an unsupported OS and he’s also had lots of complaints about battery life and power management. I love the idea of the Framework, but it seems to suffer from all the issues that made me switch to MacBooks in the first place.

lukeschlather 4y ago
doyougnu was previously running NixOS on a Macbook so their bar for "working" is probably much lower than a normal person's. I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what it would take to have sensible power management on Linux without major issues.
- doyougnu 4y ago
  battery life with that laptop was always better on the mac, but I regularly got 4-6 hours on that machine for years, first with Arch linux, and then with NixOS.
- echion 4y ago
  > if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat More than `powertop --auto-tune`?
  - 1over137 4y ago
    Just tried on my Framework with Ubuntu 22.04: $ sudo powertop --auto-tune modprobe cpufreq_stats failedCannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_results.powertop Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d Devfreq not enabled glob returned GLOB_ABORTED Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only Leaving PowerTOP
  - stormbrew 4y ago
    powertop --auto-tune is kind of annoying to use, it usually winds up tuning something that shouldn't be and there's no convenient way to filter what it does, and then suddenly your mouse stops being responsive if you leave it alone for more than 2 seconds. Also on a laptop you might have stuff being plugged and unplugged all the time. Tbh it's kind of surprising systemd hasn't grown a "powertop that remembers things" arm.
- loudmax 4y ago
  I get six to eight hours on my Thinkpad, running Arch Linux. This did not happen out of the box. I think I got like two hours of battery life before I began tuning parameters. As usual, the Arch wiki is an excellent resource even if you're running a different distro: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    That's impressive. I've done the equivalent of tuning everything and still wound up with battery lifetime half of what it should be on Windows. There's also specific programs that are really bad. Edge used to add 2-4 hours extra battery life when using my Surface to read PDFs. If I used Firefox, it was shorter by a very noticeable amount.
    - trelane 4y ago
      Does straight chrome have similar battery performance?
      - R0b0t1 4y ago
        Chrome was worse compared to MS's Edge, but Chrome based Edge seems worse than previous Edge. My testing isn't as exhaustive on the new Edge.
        trelane 4y ago
        Huh. Wonder what the secret sauce is that apparently they can't release upstream. Open source FTW?
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Try Pop OS.
  - trelane 4y ago
    On System76...
    - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
      Pop OS on a Dell XPS is giving me good battery life. If you already have your machine and files are backed up, worth a shot.
      - 420official 4y ago
        I didn't have the same experience with pop on a newer XPS. I wasn't able to get more than 4 hours on a full charge.
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        I’m on a 2020 XPS17. At the time I was having a hell of a time and it took almost a year for everything to be supported out of the box.
        trelane 4y ago
        Why do people keep doing this to themselves?! I really don't get it. Just buy a laptop from a vendor that actually supports linux, like System76.
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        Because there are countries out side of America. You may have heard of them.
        4y ago
- ay 4y ago
  Have a look at thinkpads. I used x280 and x1 over the past 5 years with more than a week’s worth in folded lid sleep state.
  - lukeschlather 4y ago
    I own/have owned multiple Thinkpads, a couple of which run Linux. The power management on Linux is bad.
- prophesi 4y ago
  Framework boards has its own compilation of battery tweaks for linux, though I'd also recommend the Arch wiki another user posted in this thread. https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/6665 https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...
- ohthehugemanate 4y ago
  What counts as sensible for you? Experience differs depending on hardware. My Dell XPS 13 got 7hrs out of the box on Manjaro, which I tweaked to get to 8.5-9. On ubuntu I didn't have to bother with the tweaks. That's comparable to Windows on this device...
nrp 4y ago
We would love to be able to provide more personalized service for different Linux distros, but we unfortunately just don't have the necessary expertise to be able to do that well. For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we have done the most internal testing with and created setup guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for their distro for help: https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 In practice, this works well because we have an extremely helpful and engaged community (including in many cases maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are publicly visible for future users to see. All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more official path would likely still start with the most popular distros.
- lillecarl 4y ago
  You know, not to promote NixOS too much but the reproducibility of it makes this specific OS especially easy to support. There's already a community driven hardware support module to use [1]. If you look at it it doesn't hold a lot of things though, since NixOS is quite bleeding edge (Wi-Fi already supported) and you Framework is otherwise quite Linux friendly (Please make a 1080p-ish display tho, until Wayland is 4 real). LPT: NixOS installs by themselves aren't good for much, use NixOS-hardware and look into power configurations if you have specific requirements. 1: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framework/default.nix https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...
  - doyougnu 4y ago
    Yea and the best part was that installing NixOS was dead easy. I followed Graham Christensen's instructions[1] and had nix create a personalized image with the latest linux kernel and some other stuff. Then I just flashed and booted from that image after partitioning. Honestly it was dead simple and its so hard to go back to the ad-hoc system config style a la Arch linux and other distros. I'm probably a lost cause now because I think I'm going to convert my entire raspberry pi cluster to NixOS from ubuntu. [1]: https://grahamc.com/blog/nixos-on-framework https://grahamc.com/blog/nixos-on-framework
trelane 4y ago
I wondered. It looked very Windowsy, and I'd guessed the Linux support was non-existent. Sounds like I'm going to stay away then.
- Shared404 4y ago
  The article says: We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working to eliminate that need. We also studied and carefully optimized the standby power draw of the system in Linux. You can check compatibility with popular distros as we continue to test on our Linux page 322 or in the Framework Community 39. [0], [1] There's semi-official Linux support it sounds like! [0] https://frame.work/linux https://frame.work/linux [1] https://community.frame.work/ https://community.frame.work/
  - trelane 4y ago
    "semi-official" is pretty far away from full support.
    - Shared404 4y ago
      But just as far away from no official support, which is where we stand with most hardware that I'm interested in.
      - trelane 4y ago
        I don't get why you're not interested in hardware that fully supports Linux, and which comes with great support, but you do you I guess.
        samtheDamned 4y ago
        because this hardware is uniquely repairable and upgradable and it has better linux support than most of the industry. Unless you just want another rebranded clevo laptop this is very good.
grumpyprole 4y ago
I don't get why the Apple wins? You'd have plenty of issues on a MacBook running an unsupported OS.

lukeschlather 4y ago

doyougnu was previously running NixOS on a Macbook so their bar for "working" is probably much lower than a normal person's. I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what it would take to have sensible power management on Linux without major issues.

doyougnu 4y ago
battery life with that laptop was always better on the mac, but I regularly got 4-6 hours on that machine for years, first with Arch linux, and then with NixOS.
echion 4y ago
> if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat More than `powertop --auto-tune`?
- 1over137 4y ago
  Just tried on my Framework with Ubuntu 22.04: $ sudo powertop --auto-tune modprobe cpufreq_stats failedCannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_results.powertop Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d Devfreq not enabled glob returned GLOB_ABORTED Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only Leaving PowerTOP
- stormbrew 4y ago
  powertop --auto-tune is kind of annoying to use, it usually winds up tuning something that shouldn't be and there's no convenient way to filter what it does, and then suddenly your mouse stops being responsive if you leave it alone for more than 2 seconds. Also on a laptop you might have stuff being plugged and unplugged all the time. Tbh it's kind of surprising systemd hasn't grown a "powertop that remembers things" arm.
loudmax 4y ago
I get six to eight hours on my Thinkpad, running Arch Linux. This did not happen out of the box. I think I got like two hours of battery life before I began tuning parameters. As usual, the Arch wiki is an excellent resource even if you're running a different distro: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  That's impressive. I've done the equivalent of tuning everything and still wound up with battery lifetime half of what it should be on Windows. There's also specific programs that are really bad. Edge used to add 2-4 hours extra battery life when using my Surface to read PDFs. If I used Firefox, it was shorter by a very noticeable amount.
  - trelane 4y ago
    Does straight chrome have similar battery performance?
    - R0b0t1 4y ago
      Chrome was worse compared to MS's Edge, but Chrome based Edge seems worse than previous Edge. My testing isn't as exhaustive on the new Edge.
      - trelane 4y ago
        Huh. Wonder what the secret sauce is that apparently they can't release upstream. Open source FTW?
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Try Pop OS.
- trelane 4y ago
  On System76...
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    Pop OS on a Dell XPS is giving me good battery life. If you already have your machine and files are backed up, worth a shot.
    - 420official 4y ago
      I didn't have the same experience with pop on a newer XPS. I wasn't able to get more than 4 hours on a full charge.
      - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        I’m on a 2020 XPS17. At the time I was having a hell of a time and it took almost a year for everything to be supported out of the box.
        trelane 4y ago
        Why do people keep doing this to themselves?! I really don't get it. Just buy a laptop from a vendor that actually supports linux, like System76.
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        Because there are countries out side of America. You may have heard of them.
        4y ago
ay 4y ago
Have a look at thinkpads. I used x280 and x1 over the past 5 years with more than a week’s worth in folded lid sleep state.
- lukeschlather 4y ago
  I own/have owned multiple Thinkpads, a couple of which run Linux. The power management on Linux is bad.
prophesi 4y ago
Framework boards has its own compilation of battery tweaks for linux, though I'd also recommend the Arch wiki another user posted in this thread. https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/6665 https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...
ohthehugemanate 4y ago
What counts as sensible for you? Experience differs depending on hardware. My Dell XPS 13 got 7hrs out of the box on Manjaro, which I tweaked to get to 8.5-9. On ubuntu I didn't have to bother with the tweaks. That's comparable to Windows on this device...

nrp 4y ago

We would love to be able to provide more personalized service for different Linux distros, but we unfortunately just don't have the necessary expertise to be able to do that well. For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we have done the most internal testing with and created setup guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for their distro for help: https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 In practice, this works well because we have an extremely helpful and engaged community (including in many cases maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are publicly visible for future users to see. All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more official path would likely still start with the most popular distros.

lillecarl 4y ago
You know, not to promote NixOS too much but the reproducibility of it makes this specific OS especially easy to support. There's already a community driven hardware support module to use [1]. If you look at it it doesn't hold a lot of things though, since NixOS is quite bleeding edge (Wi-Fi already supported) and you Framework is otherwise quite Linux friendly (Please make a 1080p-ish display tho, until Wayland is 4 real). LPT: NixOS installs by themselves aren't good for much, use NixOS-hardware and look into power configurations if you have specific requirements. 1: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framework/default.nix https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...
- doyougnu 4y ago
  Yea and the best part was that installing NixOS was dead easy. I followed Graham Christensen's instructions[1] and had nix create a personalized image with the latest linux kernel and some other stuff. Then I just flashed and booted from that image after partitioning. Honestly it was dead simple and its so hard to go back to the ad-hoc system config style a la Arch linux and other distros. I'm probably a lost cause now because I think I'm going to convert my entire raspberry pi cluster to NixOS from ubuntu. [1]: https://grahamc.com/blog/nixos-on-framework https://grahamc.com/blog/nixos-on-framework

trelane 4y ago

I wondered. It looked very Windowsy, and I'd guessed the Linux support was non-existent. Sounds like I'm going to stay away then.

Shared404 4y ago
The article says: We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working to eliminate that need. We also studied and carefully optimized the standby power draw of the system in Linux. You can check compatibility with popular distros as we continue to test on our Linux page 322 or in the Framework Community 39. [0], [1] There's semi-official Linux support it sounds like! [0] https://frame.work/linux https://frame.work/linux [1] https://community.frame.work/ https://community.frame.work/
- trelane 4y ago
  "semi-official" is pretty far away from full support.
  - Shared404 4y ago
    But just as far away from no official support, which is where we stand with most hardware that I'm interested in.
    - trelane 4y ago
      I don't get why you're not interested in hardware that fully supports Linux, and which comes with great support, but you do you I guess.
      - samtheDamned 4y ago
        because this hardware is uniquely repairable and upgradable and it has better linux support than most of the industry. Unless you just want another rebranded clevo laptop this is very good.

grumpyprole 4y ago

I don't get why the Apple wins? You'd have plenty of issues on a MacBook running an unsupported OS.