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What will be interesting to me is whether Tesla starts putting radar back in their cars--which they dropped last year for a camera-only approach that has become

by saurik 4y ago

What will be interesting to me is whether Tesla starts putting radar back in their cars--which they dropped last year for a camera-only approach that has become somewhat infamous for "phantom breaking"--after this all resolves.

ajross 4y ago
"Somewhat infamous" just means that a bunch of people got it into press hits. In practice they tuned this out a few months back. There are still circumstances where the car will slow for obstacles that I don't see as the driver, but frankly at this point is close to 50/50 as to who is right. The car reacts to stuff I miss at least as often as it tries to slow down for shadows.
- saurik 4y ago
  I mean, I went on a test drive of a Model Y and it happened to me before I knew about this issue (so it isn't like I was looking for it! it was just extremely noticeable and was one of my bigger complaints coming out of the test drive); and, last night, I was in a conversation with someone who owns a Tesla--someone who didn't even know about the radar being removed, much less that "phantom braking" was a thing people talked about a lot; and, critically, someone whom I had not talked to about the issue--and he was complaining about all the false positive collision warnings that would cause the car to jerk to a halt constantly (which made my subsequent explanation of the radar issue fun ;P)... you make it sound like this is some kind of solved problem, but it really isn't. (I'm glad you are happy with your car, FWIW.)
  - ajross 4y ago
    > you make it sound like this is some kind of solved problem, but it really isn't Fair, but you straight up claimed it was an "infamous" problem, and it isn't that either. Really what I'm saying is that it's No Big Deal, especially in comparison with where the rest of the industry is on features like this, and that the people out there claiming it is are mostly just trying to spin you on their investment ideas.
    - saurik 4y ago
      I said "somewhat infamous", which 1) isn't "straight up" saying "infamous" (so I feel you are now just doubling down into bad faith arguments) and 2) is something I stand by as it comes up in a large number of the recent important reviews of the vehicle from impactful sources (including CNET Car, which called the Model Y "critically flawed" because of this problem) in addition to being brought up in lots of comment threads about the car... it even managed to get national press from non-car news sources (which I am sure you will now attempt to discredit for some new reason). https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-phantom-braking/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-p... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/17/automobiles/tesla-phantom-braking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/17/automobiles/tesla-phantom... https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60432351.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60432351.amp
picture 4y ago
Do you mean LIDAR? I thought they are using combination of radar and camera, instead of only camera.
- valine 4y ago
  They removed the radar last year on the Model 3 and Y.
  - picture 4y ago
    Ah.
  - saurik 4y ago
    And as of mid-February it has also been removed from the S and X.
valine 4y ago
Unlikely, their most recent software update increased the max speed back up to 85mph. They’ve got feature parity between the stacks now, no reason for them to spend money on radar.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Users complain about the false positives (ie. Phantom braking). But users don't complain about the false negatives (ie. Not braking when it should) because they usually die, especially at the higher speeds. When there is such one-sided pressure on a team, I imagine there is a huge pressure to make the system pass the regulatory tests but basically nothing more. Sure, lots of people will die, but at least you don't have managers and shareholders yelling about phantom braking right?
  - samus 4y ago
    Allowing excessive casualties from autonomous driving is a surefire way to kill the whole field. Increased safety is one of the main selling points of autonomous driving.
  - dangrossman 4y ago
    I see you're getting downvoted for this, but NHTSA just released some data yesterday showing that out of 42 crashes involving cars operating under ADAS systems, 37 of those crashes were Teslas. 14 people have died in Tesla vehicles with Autopilot enabled, while only 1 person has died in an ADAS related crash in any other make of vehicle. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTH1w3SXoAEVS7K?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTH1w3SXoAEVS7K?format=jpg&name=...
    - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
      Of course whether or not this is bad depends on the percentage of ADAS systems out there from each manufacturer. If Tesla simply has more cars on the road with ADAS systems, the figure would not be surprising. That probably isn't the case, but without this information the crash figure is hard to evaluate. It may be that they have the most advanced ADAS system, causing drivers to behave differently with it.

by saurik 4y ago

ajross 4y ago

"Somewhat infamous" just means that a bunch of people got it into press hits. In practice they tuned this out a few months back. There are still circumstances where the car will slow for obstacles that I don't see as the driver, but frankly at this point is close to 50/50 as to who is right. The car reacts to stuff I miss at least as often as it tries to slow down for shadows.

saurik 4y ago
I mean, I went on a test drive of a Model Y and it happened to me before I knew about this issue (so it isn't like I was looking for it! it was just extremely noticeable and was one of my bigger complaints coming out of the test drive); and, last night, I was in a conversation with someone who owns a Tesla--someone who didn't even know about the radar being removed, much less that "phantom braking" was a thing people talked about a lot; and, critically, someone whom I had not talked to about the issue--and he was complaining about all the false positive collision warnings that would cause the car to jerk to a halt constantly (which made my subsequent explanation of the radar issue fun ;P)... you make it sound like this is some kind of solved problem, but it really isn't. (I'm glad you are happy with your car, FWIW.)
- ajross 4y ago
  > you make it sound like this is some kind of solved problem, but it really isn't Fair, but you straight up claimed it was an "infamous" problem, and it isn't that either. Really what I'm saying is that it's No Big Deal, especially in comparison with where the rest of the industry is on features like this, and that the people out there claiming it is are mostly just trying to spin you on their investment ideas.
  - saurik 4y ago
    I said "somewhat infamous", which 1) isn't "straight up" saying "infamous" (so I feel you are now just doubling down into bad faith arguments) and 2) is something I stand by as it comes up in a large number of the recent important reviews of the vehicle from impactful sources (including CNET Car, which called the Model Y "critically flawed" because of this problem) in addition to being brought up in lots of comment threads about the car... it even managed to get national press from non-car news sources (which I am sure you will now attempt to discredit for some new reason). https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-phantom-braking/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/02/tesla-p... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/17/automobiles/tesla-phantom-braking.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/17/automobiles/tesla-phantom... https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60432351.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60432351.amp

picture 4y ago

Do you mean LIDAR? I thought they are using combination of radar and camera, instead of only camera.

valine 4y ago
They removed the radar last year on the Model 3 and Y.
- picture 4y ago
  Ah.
- saurik 4y ago
  And as of mid-February it has also been removed from the S and X.

valine 4y ago

Unlikely, their most recent software update increased the max speed back up to 85mph. They’ve got feature parity between the stacks now, no reason for them to spend money on radar.

londons_explore 4y ago
Users complain about the false positives (ie. Phantom braking). But users don't complain about the false negatives (ie. Not braking when it should) because they usually die, especially at the higher speeds. When there is such one-sided pressure on a team, I imagine there is a huge pressure to make the system pass the regulatory tests but basically nothing more. Sure, lots of people will die, but at least you don't have managers and shareholders yelling about phantom braking right?
- samus 4y ago
  Allowing excessive casualties from autonomous driving is a surefire way to kill the whole field. Increased safety is one of the main selling points of autonomous driving.
- dangrossman 4y ago
  I see you're getting downvoted for this, but NHTSA just released some data yesterday showing that out of 42 crashes involving cars operating under ADAS systems, 37 of those crashes were Teslas. 14 people have died in Tesla vehicles with Autopilot enabled, while only 1 person has died in an ADAS related crash in any other make of vehicle. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTH1w3SXoAEVS7K?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTH1w3SXoAEVS7K?format=jpg&name=...
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    Of course whether or not this is bad depends on the percentage of ADAS systems out there from each manufacturer. If Tesla simply has more cars on the road with ADAS systems, the figure would not be surprising. That probably isn't the case, but without this information the crash figure is hard to evaluate. It may be that they have the most advanced ADAS system, causing drivers to behave differently with it.