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I am currently graduating with a CS degree and interpreting this as a warning to not accept the offer from the exciting startup and instead accept the offer fro

I am currently graduating with a CS degree and interpreting this as a warning to not accept the offer from the exciting startup and instead accept the offer from the big corporate fintech company. Is there any reason I could be wrong?

tschellenbach 4y ago
This issue impacts any high growth companies. It's pretty much all of tech both public and private. You can't avoid it unless you go work outside of tech
rufus_foreman 4y ago
The corporate job might be less risky than the startup, but neither one is a guarantee. Either way, you need to ask yourself if 6 months out you get laid off and there is no one hiring, what's your plan?
heurist 4y ago
Find a strong engineering team and learn.
AdamH12113 4y ago
You should definitely ask lots of questions about a startup's operations, revenue situation, funding status, etc. before you join, no matter what the economic circumstances. You should also consider whether the big company might have large layoffs soon. Which one you should choose depends very much on the specifics of the companies, as well as your financial situation, career goals, and personal temperament.
cheeseblubber 4y ago
Choosing between a startup vs a big corporate is a separate topic. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. In essence you trade learning for stability. It really depends on what you are looking for and type of environment you want to be in. If you have done the calculus and are more interested in a startup I would recommend asking what the run rate of the company is and do they have any plans to hit profitability.
altdataseller 4y ago
It depends. You just need to do more due diligence and ask harder questions to that exciting startup, especially around burn rate, and profitability goals.
rubidium 4y ago
It depends on your appetite for risk. But fintech means you’ll have a job in 2 years (likely). Nothing is guaranteed.
- throwanem 4y ago
  Finance means that, probably. Fintech isn't the same ballgame. Work for a startup and you'll have an embarrassment of riches for learning opportunities. Work in finance and you'll likely need to take some initiative, and earn and deploy some political capital, to make your own. Right now, though, it's time to be looking for a safe port above all else. If you're young and good, you won't have trouble ending up with a compelling story to tell about your time with BigCo. In the meantime you want to think about how much worrying you'd like to do about where your next check's coming from.
aurbano 4y ago
I started in the big corporate company and now work for the exciting startup. You want to maximise your learning, as long as there isn't a massive salary discrepancy try to have a lengthy chat with your future tech lead and pick the one that seems better - ultimately this is the person you'll be learning from the most in the next few years. And also, don't be scared to quit or change teams early. Don't stay longer than you have to.
MarkMarine 4y ago
There are plenty of startups that will weather this storm, and you’re going to have a lot more actual accomplishments on your resume, and actual experience building things from a year or two at a startup. Just be pragmatic about what companies you pick, the companies I view most skeptically during the downturns are the ones that cater to startups, like dev productivity startups, or those startup credit card companies, and given the chaos in the crypto markets, those don’t look like safe bets to me either. You can always ask about the company’s run rate, profitability, and war chest. They might not show you, but that is a sign also.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
This is the time for you to take the maximum possible risks. Usually as you get older your appetite for risk decreases. Ergo, take that startup offer. You will always have a job as a programmer.
- koolba 4y ago
  > This is the time for you to take the maximum possible risks. Usually as you get older your appetite for risk decreases. Taking risks for the sake of increasing risk is a combination of naive and stupid. Increased risk taking must come with an increasing reward. In an economic collapse and likely recession, having a stable job at a large established company would give you stability and, soon enough, capital for buying up home and basement prices. Working at an unprofitable early stage startup will give you a couple high fives from the founders, but you'll be in constant fear of losing that paycheck. The reward must be substantially higher than a steady big-corp job in normal times, and even more so in today's job and economic environment. > Ergo, take that startup offer. You will always have a job as a programmer. Working at a startup does not magically make you a better programmer any more than working at a large company automatically turns you into a cog churning out Java beans.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
    > Working at a startup does not magically make you a better programmer any more than working at a large company automatically turns you into a cog churning out Java beans. Working at a startup has a far better learning curve and better feedback about your rate of learning compared to a large company. Buying up capital for home and basement prices is not a part of my equation at all.
    - jossclimb 4y ago
      I would say it's not as clear cut at that. I started out at one of the big old dinosaurs and found myself with a good amount of free time (even being on site). This meant I had a stable income and lots of time to really learn new technologies from various courses / YT content and hacking away on personal projects (while being payed on the job). I was still performing well for my main role in comparison to others at the company who you had to wonder 'what does this person even do'.
fzeroracer 4y ago
A simple question to ask: Are you willing and/or able to potentially wait 6+ months for a new job if the startup goes under? Hiring for entry level engineers is already difficult and becomes much harder when companies institute hiring freezes due to an economic downturn. Take the safer option, weather out the recession and if you find an exciting startup you can join them with confidence that even if they fall apart you'll have the experience to find the next job much faster.
S_A_P 4y ago
Take the safe job when you are old and have family/dependents. Take the long shot bets when you are young. You have the potential to learn way more way more quickly at a startup and if it folds you are still young and have experience. I wish I would have taken this advice when I was 25...
- scarface74 4y ago
  I’m by definition “old” at 48. But my “safety” comes from always being employable. Since 2008 and I was already 34 (I stayed at my previous job before then for 9 years), I’ve had six that ranged from startups to big enterprises to my latest BigTech company that has a reputation for PIPs. I never worried about whether I wouldn’t be able to find a job.
- throwawayboise 4y ago
  But don't spend all your money! You have very few obligations when you are young. Basically feed yourself and pay rent. Save the rest. You will thank yourself when you are 50, because you can't catch up if you wait until then.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  I was young and poor, if you're young and poor don't take the long shot bets. You need to build stability. Long shot bets will burn you out if you don't have a safety net (and living with your parents is a completely reasonable safety net, just unfortunately one I didn't have!). I wasted my 20s thinking if I worked 60+ hours a week for a startup I would be one of the lucky ones, and it was foolish. As usual, there's no one-size fits all advice.
  - S_A_P 4y ago
    But if you are working in a startup you will hardly be poor esp with a comp sci degree.
    - micromacrofoot 4y ago
      I'm not talking about SV startups really, more like every rich dipshit in a podunk town that wants to abuse someone for some "big" idea (or advertising companies). I guess times have changed a bit though, and just about any developer can more easily get big paychecks from reputable companies these days.
chernevik 4y ago
Take the job where you will learn the most. If that's a startup and it dies no one will hold it against you. If you're good you'll probably be able to find something even in a lousy economy.
mehphp 4y ago
As others have said, now is the time to be risky. If you think that startup will hang around for a bit (1 - 2 years) that will be more than enough experience for you to land the next job. I'm not telling you to job hop, but it is completely normally to only stay at a position for 2 years (or less). I personally would choose the one that would help me grow more as an engineer and IMHO, you can get pigeonholed much more easily at a big corp than at a startup.
tester756 4y ago
I'd be careful taking opinion about startups vs corpo from HN, bias as hell. I've been reading about how corpos are bad for years and my experience is completely different from what people say My personal opinion on corpos is: _____________ pros: working on real and complex tech products that actually make huge $$ instead of burning VCs cash on yet another food/car/room/dating app strong execution (it definitely doesnt feel like it is moving slowly, waiting a few weeks for simple decisions) good $$$ way stronger brand on CV contact with people who define industry you can change teams and do something different, you don't have to change company because huge corpos probably do "everything" (im simplifying) ___________ cons: your impact is small, there are hundreds or thousands of people involved your exposure to whole development process (from getting requirements, to initial architecture, development, then just support) is small because you'll probably be thrown into existing project ___________ As others suggested - at the beginning small company / startup? where you are touching everything and doing various stuff may be very helpful to learn, but it's not like corpos are bad and you should avoid them as hard as you can
raviparikh 4y ago
This is not necessarily true. "Bigger" does not mean "more stable." Big companies like Netflix did layoffs just now; meanwhile there are plenty of small companies that are profitable and doing great. A friend of mine runs a profitable startup (~50 people). A few months ago, a candidate turned them down to join a 500+ person well-funded company that seemed more stable–that company is now bankrupt, while my friend's startup is continuing to grow. I wrote a blog about this topic: https://www.airplane.dev/blog/evaluate-startup-offers-in-a-tech-downturn https://www.airplane.dev/blog/evaluate-startup-offers-in-a-t...
wolverine876 4y ago
> I am currently graduating with a CS degree and interpreting this as a warning to not accept the offer from the exciting startup and instead accept the offer from the big corporate fintech company. You will be the first to be laid off. When everyone is competing to keep their jobs, you will have no influence. Also, fintech can be cutting edge, which is not what people spend on during downturns.
time_to_smile 4y ago
If you have the choice between "exciting startup" and "big corporate fintech company" then you don't have worry and economic down turns at all. The reality is that in a turn down turn you aren't choosing among great options. In 1999 software engineers making 100k+ in 1999 (this was a lot more money back then) working for a cool startup ended up working in banks making boiler plate code for ~80k. Most of them were forced out of the industry. If you're in a position to be making choices like you describe than there is no meaningful down turn in your industry. A more likely outcome in the event of a serious is that in 5 years you aren't doing CS related work. Talk to people that have worked in aerospace during various periods of down turn (or any similar industry).
adamsmith143 4y ago
If you discount your stock options to be worth 0 (which is the most likely scenario) and it still makes sense to work at the Startup then go for it but save aggressively because while they may tell you there won't be layoffs and they are in a strong financial position when layoffs do come they are almost always last in first out.

tschellenbach 4y ago

This issue impacts any high growth companies. It's pretty much all of tech both public and private. You can't avoid it unless you go work outside of tech

rufus_foreman 4y ago

The corporate job might be less risky than the startup, but neither one is a guarantee. Either way, you need to ask yourself if 6 months out you get laid off and there is no one hiring, what's your plan?

heurist 4y ago

Find a strong engineering team and learn.

AdamH12113 4y ago

You should definitely ask lots of questions about a startup's operations, revenue situation, funding status, etc. before you join, no matter what the economic circumstances. You should also consider whether the big company might have large layoffs soon. Which one you should choose depends very much on the specifics of the companies, as well as your financial situation, career goals, and personal temperament.

cheeseblubber 4y ago

Choosing between a startup vs a big corporate is a separate topic. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. In essence you trade learning for stability. It really depends on what you are looking for and type of environment you want to be in. If you have done the calculus and are more interested in a startup I would recommend asking what the run rate of the company is and do they have any plans to hit profitability.

altdataseller 4y ago

It depends. You just need to do more due diligence and ask harder questions to that exciting startup, especially around burn rate, and profitability goals.

rubidium 4y ago

It depends on your appetite for risk. But fintech means you’ll have a job in 2 years (likely). Nothing is guaranteed.

throwanem 4y ago
Finance means that, probably. Fintech isn't the same ballgame. Work for a startup and you'll have an embarrassment of riches for learning opportunities. Work in finance and you'll likely need to take some initiative, and earn and deploy some political capital, to make your own. Right now, though, it's time to be looking for a safe port above all else. If you're young and good, you won't have trouble ending up with a compelling story to tell about your time with BigCo. In the meantime you want to think about how much worrying you'd like to do about where your next check's coming from.

aurbano 4y ago

I started in the big corporate company and now work for the exciting startup. You want to maximise your learning, as long as there isn't a massive salary discrepancy try to have a lengthy chat with your future tech lead and pick the one that seems better - ultimately this is the person you'll be learning from the most in the next few years. And also, don't be scared to quit or change teams early. Don't stay longer than you have to.

MarkMarine 4y ago

There are plenty of startups that will weather this storm, and you’re going to have a lot more actual accomplishments on your resume, and actual experience building things from a year or two at a startup. Just be pragmatic about what companies you pick, the companies I view most skeptically during the downturns are the ones that cater to startups, like dev productivity startups, or those startup credit card companies, and given the chaos in the crypto markets, those don’t look like safe bets to me either. You can always ask about the company’s run rate, profitability, and war chest. They might not show you, but that is a sign also.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

This is the time for you to take the maximum possible risks. Usually as you get older your appetite for risk decreases. Ergo, take that startup offer. You will always have a job as a programmer.

koolba 4y ago
> This is the time for you to take the maximum possible risks. Usually as you get older your appetite for risk decreases. Taking risks for the sake of increasing risk is a combination of naive and stupid. Increased risk taking must come with an increasing reward. In an economic collapse and likely recession, having a stable job at a large established company would give you stability and, soon enough, capital for buying up home and basement prices. Working at an unprofitable early stage startup will give you a couple high fives from the founders, but you'll be in constant fear of losing that paycheck. The reward must be substantially higher than a steady big-corp job in normal times, and even more so in today's job and economic environment. > Ergo, take that startup offer. You will always have a job as a programmer. Working at a startup does not magically make you a better programmer any more than working at a large company automatically turns you into a cog churning out Java beans.
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  > Working at a startup does not magically make you a better programmer any more than working at a large company automatically turns you into a cog churning out Java beans. Working at a startup has a far better learning curve and better feedback about your rate of learning compared to a large company. Buying up capital for home and basement prices is not a part of my equation at all.
  - jossclimb 4y ago
    I would say it's not as clear cut at that. I started out at one of the big old dinosaurs and found myself with a good amount of free time (even being on site). This meant I had a stable income and lots of time to really learn new technologies from various courses / YT content and hacking away on personal projects (while being payed on the job). I was still performing well for my main role in comparison to others at the company who you had to wonder 'what does this person even do'.

fzeroracer 4y ago

A simple question to ask: Are you willing and/or able to potentially wait 6+ months for a new job if the startup goes under? Hiring for entry level engineers is already difficult and becomes much harder when companies institute hiring freezes due to an economic downturn. Take the safer option, weather out the recession and if you find an exciting startup you can join them with confidence that even if they fall apart you'll have the experience to find the next job much faster.

S_A_P 4y ago

Take the safe job when you are old and have family/dependents. Take the long shot bets when you are young. You have the potential to learn way more way more quickly at a startup and if it folds you are still young and have experience. I wish I would have taken this advice when I was 25...

scarface74 4y ago
I’m by definition “old” at 48. But my “safety” comes from always being employable. Since 2008 and I was already 34 (I stayed at my previous job before then for 9 years), I’ve had six that ranged from startups to big enterprises to my latest BigTech company that has a reputation for PIPs. I never worried about whether I wouldn’t be able to find a job.
throwawayboise 4y ago
But don't spend all your money! You have very few obligations when you are young. Basically feed yourself and pay rent. Save the rest. You will thank yourself when you are 50, because you can't catch up if you wait until then.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
I was young and poor, if you're young and poor don't take the long shot bets. You need to build stability. Long shot bets will burn you out if you don't have a safety net (and living with your parents is a completely reasonable safety net, just unfortunately one I didn't have!). I wasted my 20s thinking if I worked 60+ hours a week for a startup I would be one of the lucky ones, and it was foolish. As usual, there's no one-size fits all advice.
- S_A_P 4y ago
  But if you are working in a startup you will hardly be poor esp with a comp sci degree.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    I'm not talking about SV startups really, more like every rich dipshit in a podunk town that wants to abuse someone for some "big" idea (or advertising companies). I guess times have changed a bit though, and just about any developer can more easily get big paychecks from reputable companies these days.

chernevik 4y ago

Take the job where you will learn the most. If that's a startup and it dies no one will hold it against you. If you're good you'll probably be able to find something even in a lousy economy.

mehphp 4y ago

As others have said, now is the time to be risky. If you think that startup will hang around for a bit (1 - 2 years) that will be more than enough experience for you to land the next job. I'm not telling you to job hop, but it is completely normally to only stay at a position for 2 years (or less). I personally would choose the one that would help me grow more as an engineer and IMHO, you can get pigeonholed much more easily at a big corp than at a startup.

tester756 4y ago

I'd be careful taking opinion about startups vs corpo from HN, bias as hell. I've been reading about how corpos are bad for years and my experience is completely different from what people say My personal opinion on corpos is: _____________ pros: working on real and complex tech products that actually make huge $$ instead of burning VCs cash on yet another food/car/room/dating app strong execution (it definitely doesnt feel like it is moving slowly, waiting a few weeks for simple decisions) good $$$ way stronger brand on CV contact with people who define industry you can change teams and do something different, you don't have to change company because huge corpos probably do "everything" (im simplifying) ___________ cons: your impact is small, there are hundreds or thousands of people involved your exposure to whole development process (from getting requirements, to initial architecture, development, then just support) is small because you'll probably be thrown into existing project ___________ As others suggested - at the beginning small company / startup? where you are touching everything and doing various stuff may be very helpful to learn, but it's not like corpos are bad and you should avoid them as hard as you can

raviparikh 4y ago

This is not necessarily true. "Bigger" does not mean "more stable." Big companies like Netflix did layoffs just now; meanwhile there are plenty of small companies that are profitable and doing great. A friend of mine runs a profitable startup (~50 people). A few months ago, a candidate turned them down to join a 500+ person well-funded company that seemed more stable–that company is now bankrupt, while my friend's startup is continuing to grow. I wrote a blog about this topic: https://www.airplane.dev/blog/evaluate-startup-offers-in-a-tech-downturn https://www.airplane.dev/blog/evaluate-startup-offers-in-a-t...

wolverine876 4y ago

> I am currently graduating with a CS degree and interpreting this as a warning to not accept the offer from the exciting startup and instead accept the offer from the big corporate fintech company. You will be the first to be laid off. When everyone is competing to keep their jobs, you will have no influence. Also, fintech can be cutting edge, which is not what people spend on during downturns.

time_to_smile 4y ago

If you have the choice between "exciting startup" and "big corporate fintech company" then you don't have worry and economic down turns at all. The reality is that in a turn down turn you aren't choosing among great options. In 1999 software engineers making 100k+ in 1999 (this was a lot more money back then) working for a cool startup ended up working in banks making boiler plate code for ~80k. Most of them were forced out of the industry. If you're in a position to be making choices like you describe than there is no meaningful down turn in your industry. A more likely outcome in the event of a serious is that in 5 years you aren't doing CS related work. Talk to people that have worked in aerospace during various periods of down turn (or any similar industry).

adamsmith143 4y ago

If you discount your stock options to be worth 0 (which is the most likely scenario) and it still makes sense to work at the Startup then go for it but save aggressively because while they may tell you there won't be layoffs and they are in a strong financial position when layoffs do come they are almost always last in first out.