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This is a weird reductive line of reasoning where you can't have multiple goals. My primary goal is relationship building amongst my staff, my secondary goal is

This is a weird reductive line of reasoning where you can't have multiple goals. My primary goal is relationship building amongst my staff, my secondary goal is for them have fun while doing it. Therefore I try to create the most fun activity possible that involves the staff being together. Your "send them home an hour early" completely violates the primary goal without invalidating the secondary goal as you claim.

fleddr 4y ago
The reason you can't have multiple goals in this case is because fun and mandatory are directly opposed to each other. The moment you require somebody to have fun, it no longer is fun.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
Then the relationship building excercise should be during normal work hours. In my experience, the “fun” exercise is only a problem when it is after work hours and not appropriately compensated.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Your "send them home an hour early" completely violates the primary goal without invalidating the secondary goal as you claim As you imply, there is a middle ground: let them off early and announce you’ll buy drinks at the bar. If people want to join, they have the option. If they don’t they won’t. If you’ve created the right culture, nobody will feel obligated, but you’ll receive feedback on the social state of your team.
- SomeCallMeTim 4y ago
  Yeah...some of us don't drink. Buy me food, however, and barring a conflict, I'll go. ;)
- fluctor 4y ago
  This can get weird if you're the boss and offering to buy drinks, if only because it can reinforce a power dynamic you already see in the office.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    Have the company open up a tab. It's a business expense.
guerrilla 4y ago
> My primary goal is relationship building amongst my staff So it's a means to an end that ultimate benefits the company, and therefore it wasn't reductive, just an accurate characterization of what you're doing...
hn_version_0023 4y ago
What’s your take on people who aren’t interested in relationship building at work? I’ve never been particularly interested, mostly because I bristle at the idea of someone else telling me what to do! Granted my attitude is frequently called childish, and while I acknowledge it can be childish, its much more frequently simple disinterest. Curious to hear your take as I’ve only ever heard the take of exasperated former managers who rarely-to-never care about my personal feelings. Thanks!!
- gamblor956 4y ago
  It's important to build relationships with your coworkers. You don't need to be buddies, but you do need to know each other well enough that you feel comfortable bouncing ideas off them or working with them in stressful situations. I don't have to manage staff anymore but when I did, the people who didn't build relationships with their coworkers were the first ones let go. Their individual productivity wasn't good enough to justify their reduced ability to work with others. (However, note that this was at a firm where productivity was measured at billable hours, so not really comparable to an in-house position.)
  - hn_version_0023 4y ago
    Great take, thanks! I’ve always felt that I was able to build effective working relationships without resorting to mandatory drinks after work, or other mandatory fun. It definitely hampers me, but honestly, I’m not staying for more than two years. I’m not interested in internally climbing a ladder. I’m interested in stepping up the salary ladder, and you don’t do that with promotions internally.
    - brnt 4y ago
      > I’ve always felt that I was able to build effective working relationships without resorting to mandatory drinks after work, or other mandatory fun. Those arent my favorites either, but lets not reduce the options to the stereotype: there are other ways too. The two qualifiers you put in front of relationship already pidgeonholes the outcomes. I think you should consider that you may in fact not have been developing good relationships, or possibly very one-sided ones.

fleddr 4y ago

The reason you can't have multiple goals in this case is because fun and mandatory are directly opposed to each other. The moment you require somebody to have fun, it no longer is fun.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

Then the relationship building excercise should be during normal work hours. In my experience, the “fun” exercise is only a problem when it is after work hours and not appropriately compensated.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Your "send them home an hour early" completely violates the primary goal without invalidating the secondary goal as you claim As you imply, there is a middle ground: let them off early and announce you’ll buy drinks at the bar. If people want to join, they have the option. If they don’t they won’t. If you’ve created the right culture, nobody will feel obligated, but you’ll receive feedback on the social state of your team.

SomeCallMeTim 4y ago
Yeah...some of us don't drink. Buy me food, however, and barring a conflict, I'll go. ;)
fluctor 4y ago
This can get weird if you're the boss and offering to buy drinks, if only because it can reinforce a power dynamic you already see in the office.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  Have the company open up a tab. It's a business expense.

guerrilla 4y ago

> My primary goal is relationship building amongst my staff So it's a means to an end that ultimate benefits the company, and therefore it wasn't reductive, just an accurate characterization of what you're doing...

hn_version_0023 4y ago

What’s your take on people who aren’t interested in relationship building at work? I’ve never been particularly interested, mostly because I bristle at the idea of someone else telling me what to do! Granted my attitude is frequently called childish, and while I acknowledge it can be childish, its much more frequently simple disinterest. Curious to hear your take as I’ve only ever heard the take of exasperated former managers who rarely-to-never care about my personal feelings. Thanks!!

gamblor956 4y ago
It's important to build relationships with your coworkers. You don't need to be buddies, but you do need to know each other well enough that you feel comfortable bouncing ideas off them or working with them in stressful situations. I don't have to manage staff anymore but when I did, the people who didn't build relationships with their coworkers were the first ones let go. Their individual productivity wasn't good enough to justify their reduced ability to work with others. (However, note that this was at a firm where productivity was measured at billable hours, so not really comparable to an in-house position.)
- hn_version_0023 4y ago
  Great take, thanks! I’ve always felt that I was able to build effective working relationships without resorting to mandatory drinks after work, or other mandatory fun. It definitely hampers me, but honestly, I’m not staying for more than two years. I’m not interested in internally climbing a ladder. I’m interested in stepping up the salary ladder, and you don’t do that with promotions internally.
  - brnt 4y ago
    > I’ve always felt that I was able to build effective working relationships without resorting to mandatory drinks after work, or other mandatory fun. Those arent my favorites either, but lets not reduce the options to the stereotype: there are other ways too. The two qualifiers you put in front of relationship already pidgeonholes the outcomes. I think you should consider that you may in fact not have been developing good relationships, or possibly very one-sided ones.