6 ms·

Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though

Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector to the motherboard.

NonNefarious 4y ago
And isn't Lenovo perpetrating a bunch of anti-customer, John-Deere-style lockdowns and rip-offs on their hardware?
csdvrx 4y ago
> Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux. And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver) > Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard. + : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: - PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! - PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too - Delete above Backspace - A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)
- Liskni_si 4y ago
  > A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: > PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s.jpg https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...
  - rkagerer 4y ago
    Youch does nobody else go haywire that Fn and Ctrl keys are in the 'wrong' spots?
    - pmlnr 4y ago
      That is the correct one. FN first, ctrl next. See DEC, and IBM.
      - csdvrx 4y ago
        Personally, I like it as it is, but I can understand someone preferring the control key in the bottom left (though I would suggest using Caps as Control, in which case having Fn on the easier to reach spot and therefore first would still make more sense)
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      There's a bios option to swap them, and custom firmwares doing the same for the thinkpad bluetooth keyboard
      - rkagerer 4y ago
        Ah awesome!
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    That's what available now: except on the T25, the old layout is no longer found on modern Thinkpads. This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.
    - Liskni_si 4y ago
      > This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short. Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts. But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-(
- wiml 4y ago
  I'm curious what your use of PrtSc is that is that important to you. I don't think I've pressed that key since the 1990s. Am I missing out?
  - Macha 4y ago
    On Linux I have it bound to flameshot, which you can consider the equivalent of Snipping Tool on Windows or Cmd-Shift-4 on OS X.
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    It's a key that's very useful on Windows for screenshotting. Personally, I use it for various color inversion profiles (ex OLED: make all the dark greys pitch black, night time: black and red) + for ShareX.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too Please don't. Unless you want users of language layouts that make use AltGr to suffer. Imagine typing away a message, accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr (actually SysRq), and triggering a sysrq reboot in linux. Regularly. It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    > Please don't. Please do! Because even with the most generous interpretation of your issue, it seems fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask, and asking instead for that to become everyone problem by having the key moved! > accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr What about learning to touchtype? And until them, typing in a well lit room? > It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones. That's a false dichotomy. You are not triggering crashes, you are instructing your computer to reboot (sysreq B) which it does. It should not be blamed on the computer, but on your lack of attention, and the lack of adaptation, so I'd even call that a self inflicted problem. If you can take the time to configure your laptop to use a non standard layout, you can certainly take the extra time to learn proper typing instead of bothering the vast majority of those who are happy with this layout. If you can't take that time, you can certainly apply one of the many possible counter measures, like moving sysreq to another key (cf dumpkeys and loadkeys), or just disabling the sysreq reboot function (0 disables sysreq, 1 enables it, but you can have a finer control if you read the documentation, ex: 128 is the bitmask for the reboot/poweroff) which would let you debug the "legit ones" - though if your linux has legit crashes, you may have bigger problems!
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      > fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask So, git gud? Sorry, I'm not buying it. People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect. Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity), but requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it. Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions. And why should they? Machines should be made well in the first place. Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  All of your attributes of a "thinkpad keyboard" are downsides that would make me less likely to buy it. Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible.
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    > Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible. Yes, bring on the numpad on a laptop... not! Form determines function: ANSI 104 had its time, when we were using desktops! Now except for gaming and CPAs, numpads have outlived their usefulness.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      I don't mean a laptop has to have all 104 keys. I mean the subset they do have should be arranged the same way that they are on ANSI 104. E.g., I want a laptop with keys up to 80% at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout_Diagram_with_Form_Factor.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout...
- pedrocr 4y ago
  > Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux. The features are great but my complaint was about quality control. My T460s has had every single part but the chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed. A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.
  - loosescrews 4y ago
    I have had similar experiences with the X1 Extreme. The biggest issue I have had is that the repair process almost always breaks something new. The first one spent so much time getting repaired that I actually bought a second one so that I could at least have one functional laptop. The second one is a newer generation, but the quality issues are similar.
  - bitwize 4y ago
    The sense I'm getting is that my 2014 T450s was one of the last few "acceptable" ThinkPads. If I need a new laptop, it will be a Framework.
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    > A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone. I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware changes. Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a dead port. Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen) The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the xx30 series, but there's less travel. Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different from the previous generations: even if it's handled by the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense. Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts.

NonNefarious 4y ago

And isn't Lenovo perpetrating a bunch of anti-customer, John-Deere-style lockdowns and rip-offs on their hardware?

csdvrx 4y ago

> Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux. And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver) > Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard. + : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: - PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! - PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too - Delete above Backspace - A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)

Liskni_si 4y ago
> A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following: > PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever! > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s.jpg https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...
- rkagerer 4y ago
  Youch does nobody else go haywire that Fn and Ctrl keys are in the 'wrong' spots?
  - pmlnr 4y ago
    That is the correct one. FN first, ctrl next. See DEC, and IBM.
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      Personally, I like it as it is, but I can understand someone preferring the control key in the bottom left (though I would suggest using Caps as Control, in which case having Fn on the easier to reach spot and therefore first would still make more sense)
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    There's a bios option to swap them, and custom firmwares doing the same for the thinkpad bluetooth keyboard
    - rkagerer 4y ago
      Ah awesome!
- csdvrx 4y ago
  That's what available now: except on the T25, the old layout is no longer found on modern Thinkpads. This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.
  - Liskni_si 4y ago
    > This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short. Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts. But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-(
wiml 4y ago
I'm curious what your use of PrtSc is that is that important to you. I don't think I've pressed that key since the 1990s. Am I missing out?
- Macha 4y ago
  On Linux I have it bound to flameshot, which you can consider the equivalent of Snipping Tool on Windows or Cmd-Shift-4 on OS X.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  It's a key that's very useful on Windows for screenshotting. Personally, I use it for various color inversion profiles (ex OLED: make all the dark greys pitch black, night time: black and red) + for ShareX.
rhn_mk1 4y ago
> PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too Please don't. Unless you want users of language layouts that make use AltGr to suffer. Imagine typing away a message, accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr (actually SysRq), and triggering a sysrq reboot in linux. Regularly. It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > Please don't. Please do! Because even with the most generous interpretation of your issue, it seems fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask, and asking instead for that to become everyone problem by having the key moved! > accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr What about learning to touchtype? And until them, typing in a well lit room? > It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones. That's a false dichotomy. You are not triggering crashes, you are instructing your computer to reboot (sysreq B) which it does. It should not be blamed on the computer, but on your lack of attention, and the lack of adaptation, so I'd even call that a self inflicted problem. If you can take the time to configure your laptop to use a non standard layout, you can certainly take the extra time to learn proper typing instead of bothering the vast majority of those who are happy with this layout. If you can't take that time, you can certainly apply one of the many possible counter measures, like moving sysreq to another key (cf dumpkeys and loadkeys), or just disabling the sysreq reboot function (0 disables sysreq, 1 enables it, but you can have a finer control if you read the documentation, ex: 128 is the bitmask for the reboot/poweroff) which would let you debug the "legit ones" - though if your linux has legit crashes, you may have bigger problems!
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    > fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask So, git gud? Sorry, I'm not buying it. People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect. Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity), but requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it. Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions. And why should they? Machines should be made well in the first place. Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.
josephcsible 4y ago
All of your attributes of a "thinkpad keyboard" are downsides that would make me less likely to buy it. Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible. Yes, bring on the numpad on a laptop... not! Form determines function: ANSI 104 had its time, when we were using desktops! Now except for gaming and CPAs, numpads have outlived their usefulness.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    I don't mean a laptop has to have all 104 keys. I mean the subset they do have should be arranged the same way that they are on ANSI 104. E.g., I want a laptop with keys up to 80% at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout_Diagram_with_Form_Factor.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout...
pedrocr 4y ago
> Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux. The features are great but my complaint was about quality control. My T460s has had every single part but the chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed. A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.
- loosescrews 4y ago
  I have had similar experiences with the X1 Extreme. The biggest issue I have had is that the repair process almost always breaks something new. The first one spent so much time getting repaired that I actually bought a second one so that I could at least have one functional laptop. The second one is a newer generation, but the quality issues are similar.
- bitwize 4y ago
  The sense I'm getting is that my 2014 T450s was one of the last few "acceptable" ThinkPads. If I need a new laptop, it will be a Framework.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone. I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware changes. Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a dead port. Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen) The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the xx30 series, but there's less travel. Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different from the previous generations: even if it's handled by the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense. Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts.