7 ms·

Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD. Half the article was them complaining about poor working memory, and the rest about getting stimula

Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD. Half the article was them complaining about poor working memory, and the rest about getting stimulation/dopamine from unhealthy sources. Everyone has "a little ADHD". We all occasionally, forget things, hyperfocus on things we are excited about, etc. ADHD is the disorder of having those struggles so often it's debilitating. It stems from having an underdeveloped frontal lobe that doesn't feel dopamine as well as neurotypical brains do, meaning an ADHD brain needs more stimulus to feel healthy. Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD. Addiction, in the public consciousness/vernacular, is more abstract than SAD: it can mean anything from chemical dependence to unwanted habits. I suspect most people tend to make a false equivalence between the former and the latter. I see all the time people struggling to change a simple habit and immediately labeling themselves "addicts". I think that's a unhelpful characterization. I think the point people tend to miss is that in order to change a habit, you don't just "stop doing it": you must replace it with an alternative dopamine source. This is especially tricky with untreated ADHD.

hirvi74 4y ago
> Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD I feel like I am one of the rare people that developed a SAD from medically treating ADHD. It's not from the intended effects of the medication, but from trying to treat the side-effects.
narag 4y ago
Another alternative explanation, that I find that extends to many alleged addictions is that he is avoiding doing what he needs to do because anxiety. A recent related post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431
- jnovek 4y ago
  Both could be true: for a person with ADHD, lack of stimulation can cause anxiety.
- fsociety 4y ago
  That is what I thought for the longest time. Then I learned my anxiety was because of my ADHD.
jnovek 4y ago
You alluded to this, but I think it’s worth saying explicitly: People with ADHD are 2.7 times more likely to deal with depression than people without. This is very subjective and I can’t put a finger on what it is exactly but something in this post just feels like depression.
- 121789 4y ago
  I think you're catching the overall sentiment, which is "why does it matter?". I actually wonder whether the causal direction works the other way sometimes with anxiety/depression. The combination of the two makes it hard to evaluate or visualize long term positive outcomes of current actions, so you're more likely to gravitate towards things that are immediately rewarding. My unrelated take is that remote work is going to make this problem way worse.
- tggir1 4y ago
  I picked up on it too. I think theres a subtle tone of resignation or hopelessness.
burner22 4y ago
I feel seen. My mechanism for remaining focused and getting through work has been to consume harder illicit substances, mostly cocaine. It's effective but definitely not sustainable long time and I'm not too sure where from here.
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  Desoxyn 5mg is highly reviewed by people who have it prescribed for ADHD.
  - keypusher 4y ago
    Desoxyn is brand name methamphetamine, just fyi
  - malnourish 4y ago
    Good luck getting prescribed that by any GP. I am as above board as I can be when it comes to my medicine (never take more than 1 a day, never ask for more, etc) but the song and dance for getting refills, let alone a new or changed prescription, makes me feel like a criminal hunting for his next fix. I can't imagine what it must be like for people who legitimately need opiates.
    - mod 4y ago
      My 78-year-old father, who doesn't even drink or smoke, gets Norcos for his back. He's a pool player and he just uses them when he plays long enough to trigger his back pain; on a normal day at the house, he won't use any. The hoops and ridiculous requirements he has to jump through are crazy. He just got a random drug test the other day. He has to meet with the doc all the time. They ask him stupid questions (I've been in the room). He has to fill out the same form each time with all these questions about addictive behavior. He's got to bring his pill bottle with him; not allowed to have too many pills, or too few, or you get in trouble. Doc was quizzing him about why he has other prescribed medications. And on and on. My dad has to set aside pills so that he doesn't lose the prescription, since he doesn't use as many pills as he's prescribed; it's highly important to him, as he's played pool nearly every single day for about 57 years and he is going to hold onto that as long as he can.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
> Everyone has "a little ADHD". I get what you’re saying but I want to push back hard on this. Everyone has some of the symptoms of ADHD at any given time. But, ADHD isn’t more of the same symptoms. That’s how it’s diagnosed, but the underlying mechanism is a severely compromised ability to self-regulate which is categorically different from what people experience when they are out of mental energy. Edit: I've clarified what I mean in other comments in the thread. My issue is the use of the phrase without explaining why it is wrong.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  You're splitting hairs. Everyone has a little trouble regulating themselves, some people have a little more trouble, some people have enough trouble that it becomes a disorder.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    That's the entire point I'm trying to make. "Everyone has X" is a categorically wrong understanding of what the underlying problem is. An equivalent is saying everyone has trouble walking sometimes when we're talking about someone who limps and needs a cane. The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.
    - sirsinsalot 4y ago
      Absolutely this. A normal range of feeling / experience isn't a "bit of a disorder" ... it is no disorder. Feeling like you need to wash dirt off your hands before eating isn't a "bit of OCD", that's normal. Worrying irrationally so much about clean hands that it ruins your life, leaving you crying from normal tasks like cooking ... every touch of a surface triggers fight/flight ... is a disorder. It isn't the mechanism that's important, but the impact and motivators. Same with ADHD. A bit of being inattentive or forgetful or whatever ... isn't a "bit" of the disorder that also contains some of those behaviours in extreme.
    - colechristensen 4y ago
jaqalopes 4y ago
As someone actually diagnosed with and medicated for ADHD, I'm stunned by the clarity and relatability of this description of it, right down to the SAD that has afflicted me for over a decade. None of my doctors has ever put it so clearly, so obviously, in a way that connects to my actual experience. All that is to say, I'm bringing this to my next therapy session, wish me luck.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  Good luck! I'm glad I could help.
dboreham 4y ago
> Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD Two sides of the same coin imho. Both mechanisms are dopamine-driven.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  That's literally my point. ADHD is like having a coin that's to thin for the press (stimulation/dopamine) to leave a mark. Addiction is like having the press put too much pressure.
AlwaysRock 4y ago
> "a little ADHD" Yikes. What a bad take. Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement. But saying everyone has a little bit of this debilitating mental disorder makes light of something that is not an easy thing to deal with for many sufferers. That's like saying everyone has a little cancer because sometimes we all get colds which people going through chemo may be more likely to get.
- annie_muss 4y ago
  I think a better way to frame it is on a continuum. If you lose 1% of the strength in your legs you probably won't notice. If you lose 99% you're stuck using a wheelchair. There's no clearly defined point where it goes from "normal" to "problematic", but if it's bad enough to affect you functioning in day-to-day life then it's an issue.
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    Yes, but the clue is in the name. Disorder. It's like concern for having clean hands. A certain amount is sensible, normal and part of being a human. Too much of that concern, when it becomes life ruining anxiety ... is a disorder. Normal concern for clean hands isn't "a little bit of OCD".
    - loves_mangoes 4y ago
      Autism is also classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, and yet it is a spectrum. The fact that we, as humans, have to decide who gets the label of 'Has the Disorder' and who doesn't is just an artifact of how we like to label things. For the same reason that you don't magically go from a child to an adult the minute you turn 18. There is a smooth spectrum of development as people age, but for practical and legal reasons we need a cutoff for officially calling people adults. Some disorders are also on a smooth spectrum. Some people have a little anxiety, or show a few autistic symptoms without it ruining their lives. That doesn't invalidate the experience of people who have severe anxiety or a more advanced degree of autism. Don't imbue too much meaning to the where the cutoff for the label is. There's no need to gatekeep mental illness, the goal is helping people. We're not competing for who has the real thing™ and deserves to be taken seriously. Let's just listen to people, let them describe things as they perceive them to be, and try to be helpful.
annie_muss 4y ago
I agree with this completely. I sounded just like the OP. I struggled with it for decades. Then recently I was diagnosed and started taking medication. Some of the problems basically stopped instantly. I implore anyone reading this and noticing it in themselves to go to a professional and find out if you have ADHD or not. I am by no means "cured" or completely functional but at least now I have a fighting chance.
- boppo1 4y ago
  Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me. Real bummer.
  - cancerhacker 4y ago
    There may be different medications that can help. I was initially given Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine) and it was so good and I wrote the most beautiful code and my focus was pure and I needed more and more and I lined the pills up at night and did I mention beautiful code, on on sentences and becoming insufferable? Anyway, I switched to a different stimulant (vyvanse) which had a more measured effect and did not lead to that kind of addictive over the top behavior. Apropos of the original post - I find that during a procrastination spell, I’m still “working” in the back of my mind even though it might look like I’m doing legos at work. At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel.
    - hirvi74 4y ago
      > At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel. What a wonderful way to describe such a feeling. I have struggled, and still struggle, with the same issue. I have no idea of get that switch to flip on faster, but I hate wasting so much of my day just waiting.
gspr 4y ago
How does one generally go about dealing with the fact that the above is a 100% match for oneself, 30-some years into life? I'm feeling physically sweaty realizing how accurately the article – and this comment – describes me.
- tggir1 4y ago
  First thing to consider is whether your behavior is causing problems with your life. Are you flaking on responsibilities? Failing at work? Are you feeling out of control? Next, set up an appointment with a mental health professional (I recommend a psychiatrist) to talk through your thoughts. They will help you identify the causes of your behavior and provide solutions.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  Whether it leads to an ADHD diagnosis or not, therapy is a great place to start. And whether you have it or not, learning about ADHD is a great thing to do. I recommend starting with this cheesy yet informative YouTube channel: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
birdyrooster 4y ago
People with ADHD are twice as likely to become addicted to substances, I assume the same is true of YouTube. For many, including me, ADHD and addiction come hand in hand.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sirsinsalot 4y ago
> I think that's a unhelpful characterization. I agree, and I think it is important to talk about the sensation, not just the observation or impact on others (which are easy to compare poorly). To me it isn't so much the _what_, but the _why_. The brain is hunting for stimulation due to a baseline deficit below that required to operate normally. I can tell you from experience that "hunt" can range from classic hyperfocus/lack of focus to chronic boredom, hypersexuality, drug abuse and so on. What provides the stimulation to reach baseline one day, may not work the next day, or even from hour-to-hour or minute to minute. That's the core issue, however it manifests. If just one thing consistently hit the spot, it'd be akin to an addiction (where in addiction your brain down regulates, so you need to keep supplying it). As it stands, it is more like being addicted to both everything and nothing, in a never ending frenzy of disatisfaction, frustration and boredom. Your brain, always downregulated, always chasing a moving fix. Habit doesn't come into it one tiny bit.
guerrilla 4y ago
This shouldn't be flagged... This was a totally valid comment which generated tons of fine discussion.
psyc 4y ago
I was exactly like OP for 2 years. I was in therapy talking about it that whole time, to no result whatsoever. Then I got on Wellbutrin and literally ten days later all of that behavior just completely ended, and I returned to taking care of important shit and being productive. No willpower required. I just suddenly felt compelled to do different things. Just saying. Wellbutrin is known to fuck with dopamine, presumably sometimes for the better.
- ghostbrainalpha 4y ago
  How many years ago was that?
FrankyHollywood 4y ago
I do think one should not bring it all to adhd being a physiological deficiency of the brain. For me personally it is also about being above average smart. I'm intensely bored by a lot of people and activities. I lose interest, can't remember a lot, get irritated easily. After many years I have some good friends, work which suits me, I know how to leasure well, basically I know how to amuse and challenge myself and don't experience lots of the adhs symptoms anymore.

hirvi74 4y ago

> Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD I feel like I am one of the rare people that developed a SAD from medically treating ADHD. It's not from the intended effects of the medication, but from trying to treat the side-effects.

narag 4y ago

Another alternative explanation, that I find that extends to many alleged addictions is that he is avoiding doing what he needs to do because anxiety. A recent related post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431

jnovek 4y ago
Both could be true: for a person with ADHD, lack of stimulation can cause anxiety.
fsociety 4y ago
That is what I thought for the longest time. Then I learned my anxiety was because of my ADHD.

jnovek 4y ago

You alluded to this, but I think it’s worth saying explicitly: People with ADHD are 2.7 times more likely to deal with depression than people without. This is very subjective and I can’t put a finger on what it is exactly but something in this post just feels like depression.

121789 4y ago
I think you're catching the overall sentiment, which is "why does it matter?". I actually wonder whether the causal direction works the other way sometimes with anxiety/depression. The combination of the two makes it hard to evaluate or visualize long term positive outcomes of current actions, so you're more likely to gravitate towards things that are immediately rewarding. My unrelated take is that remote work is going to make this problem way worse.
tggir1 4y ago
I picked up on it too. I think theres a subtle tone of resignation or hopelessness.

burner22 4y ago

I feel seen. My mechanism for remaining focused and getting through work has been to consume harder illicit substances, mostly cocaine. It's effective but definitely not sustainable long time and I'm not too sure where from here.

anonymoushn 4y ago
Desoxyn 5mg is highly reviewed by people who have it prescribed for ADHD.
- keypusher 4y ago
  Desoxyn is brand name methamphetamine, just fyi
- malnourish 4y ago
  Good luck getting prescribed that by any GP. I am as above board as I can be when it comes to my medicine (never take more than 1 a day, never ask for more, etc) but the song and dance for getting refills, let alone a new or changed prescription, makes me feel like a criminal hunting for his next fix. I can't imagine what it must be like for people who legitimately need opiates.
  - mod 4y ago
    My 78-year-old father, who doesn't even drink or smoke, gets Norcos for his back. He's a pool player and he just uses them when he plays long enough to trigger his back pain; on a normal day at the house, he won't use any. The hoops and ridiculous requirements he has to jump through are crazy. He just got a random drug test the other day. He has to meet with the doc all the time. They ask him stupid questions (I've been in the room). He has to fill out the same form each time with all these questions about addictive behavior. He's got to bring his pill bottle with him; not allowed to have too many pills, or too few, or you get in trouble. Doc was quizzing him about why he has other prescribed medications. And on and on. My dad has to set aside pills so that he doesn't lose the prescription, since he doesn't use as many pills as he's prescribed; it's highly important to him, as he's played pool nearly every single day for about 57 years and he is going to hold onto that as long as he can.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

> Everyone has "a little ADHD". I get what you’re saying but I want to push back hard on this. Everyone has some of the symptoms of ADHD at any given time. But, ADHD isn’t more of the same symptoms. That’s how it’s diagnosed, but the underlying mechanism is a severely compromised ability to self-regulate which is categorically different from what people experience when they are out of mental energy. Edit: I've clarified what I mean in other comments in the thread. My issue is the use of the phrase without explaining why it is wrong.

colechristensen 4y ago
You're splitting hairs. Everyone has a little trouble regulating themselves, some people have a little more trouble, some people have enough trouble that it becomes a disorder.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  That's the entire point I'm trying to make. "Everyone has X" is a categorically wrong understanding of what the underlying problem is. An equivalent is saying everyone has trouble walking sometimes when we're talking about someone who limps and needs a cane. The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    Absolutely this. A normal range of feeling / experience isn't a "bit of a disorder" ... it is no disorder. Feeling like you need to wash dirt off your hands before eating isn't a "bit of OCD", that's normal. Worrying irrationally so much about clean hands that it ruins your life, leaving you crying from normal tasks like cooking ... every touch of a surface triggers fight/flight ... is a disorder. It isn't the mechanism that's important, but the impact and motivators. Same with ADHD. A bit of being inattentive or forgetful or whatever ... isn't a "bit" of the disorder that also contains some of those behaviours in extreme.
  - colechristensen 4y ago

jaqalopes 4y ago

As someone actually diagnosed with and medicated for ADHD, I'm stunned by the clarity and relatability of this description of it, right down to the SAD that has afflicted me for over a decade. None of my doctors has ever put it so clearly, so obviously, in a way that connects to my actual experience. All that is to say, I'm bringing this to my next therapy session, wish me luck.

thomastjeffery 4y ago
Good luck! I'm glad I could help.

dboreham 4y ago

> Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD Two sides of the same coin imho. Both mechanisms are dopamine-driven.

thomastjeffery 4y ago
That's literally my point. ADHD is like having a coin that's to thin for the press (stimulation/dopamine) to leave a mark. Addiction is like having the press put too much pressure.

AlwaysRock 4y ago

> "a little ADHD" Yikes. What a bad take. Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement. But saying everyone has a little bit of this debilitating mental disorder makes light of something that is not an easy thing to deal with for many sufferers. That's like saying everyone has a little cancer because sometimes we all get colds which people going through chemo may be more likely to get.

annie_muss 4y ago
I think a better way to frame it is on a continuum. If you lose 1% of the strength in your legs you probably won't notice. If you lose 99% you're stuck using a wheelchair. There's no clearly defined point where it goes from "normal" to "problematic", but if it's bad enough to affect you functioning in day-to-day life then it's an issue.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  Yes, but the clue is in the name. Disorder. It's like concern for having clean hands. A certain amount is sensible, normal and part of being a human. Too much of that concern, when it becomes life ruining anxiety ... is a disorder. Normal concern for clean hands isn't "a little bit of OCD".
  - loves_mangoes 4y ago
    Autism is also classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, and yet it is a spectrum. The fact that we, as humans, have to decide who gets the label of 'Has the Disorder' and who doesn't is just an artifact of how we like to label things. For the same reason that you don't magically go from a child to an adult the minute you turn 18. There is a smooth spectrum of development as people age, but for practical and legal reasons we need a cutoff for officially calling people adults. Some disorders are also on a smooth spectrum. Some people have a little anxiety, or show a few autistic symptoms without it ruining their lives. That doesn't invalidate the experience of people who have severe anxiety or a more advanced degree of autism. Don't imbue too much meaning to the where the cutoff for the label is. There's no need to gatekeep mental illness, the goal is helping people. We're not competing for who has the real thing™ and deserves to be taken seriously. Let's just listen to people, let them describe things as they perceive them to be, and try to be helpful.

annie_muss 4y ago

I agree with this completely. I sounded just like the OP. I struggled with it for decades. Then recently I was diagnosed and started taking medication. Some of the problems basically stopped instantly. I implore anyone reading this and noticing it in themselves to go to a professional and find out if you have ADHD or not. I am by no means "cured" or completely functional but at least now I have a fighting chance.

boppo1 4y ago
Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me. Real bummer.
- cancerhacker 4y ago
  There may be different medications that can help. I was initially given Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine) and it was so good and I wrote the most beautiful code and my focus was pure and I needed more and more and I lined the pills up at night and did I mention beautiful code, on on sentences and becoming insufferable? Anyway, I switched to a different stimulant (vyvanse) which had a more measured effect and did not lead to that kind of addictive over the top behavior. Apropos of the original post - I find that during a procrastination spell, I’m still “working” in the back of my mind even though it might look like I’m doing legos at work. At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel.
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    > At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel. What a wonderful way to describe such a feeling. I have struggled, and still struggle, with the same issue. I have no idea of get that switch to flip on faster, but I hate wasting so much of my day just waiting.

gspr 4y ago

How does one generally go about dealing with the fact that the above is a 100% match for oneself, 30-some years into life? I'm feeling physically sweaty realizing how accurately the article – and this comment – describes me.

tggir1 4y ago
First thing to consider is whether your behavior is causing problems with your life. Are you flaking on responsibilities? Failing at work? Are you feeling out of control? Next, set up an appointment with a mental health professional (I recommend a psychiatrist) to talk through your thoughts. They will help you identify the causes of your behavior and provide solutions.
thomastjeffery 4y ago
Whether it leads to an ADHD diagnosis or not, therapy is a great place to start. And whether you have it or not, learning about ADHD is a great thing to do. I recommend starting with this cheesy yet informative YouTube channel: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD

birdyrooster 4y ago

People with ADHD are twice as likely to become addicted to substances, I assume the same is true of YouTube. For many, including me, ADHD and addiction come hand in hand.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

sirsinsalot 4y ago

> I think that's a unhelpful characterization. I agree, and I think it is important to talk about the sensation, not just the observation or impact on others (which are easy to compare poorly). To me it isn't so much the _what_, but the _why_. The brain is hunting for stimulation due to a baseline deficit below that required to operate normally. I can tell you from experience that "hunt" can range from classic hyperfocus/lack of focus to chronic boredom, hypersexuality, drug abuse and so on. What provides the stimulation to reach baseline one day, may not work the next day, or even from hour-to-hour or minute to minute. That's the core issue, however it manifests. If just one thing consistently hit the spot, it'd be akin to an addiction (where in addiction your brain down regulates, so you need to keep supplying it). As it stands, it is more like being addicted to both everything and nothing, in a never ending frenzy of disatisfaction, frustration and boredom. Your brain, always downregulated, always chasing a moving fix. Habit doesn't come into it one tiny bit.

guerrilla 4y ago

This shouldn't be flagged... This was a totally valid comment which generated tons of fine discussion.

psyc 4y ago

I was exactly like OP for 2 years. I was in therapy talking about it that whole time, to no result whatsoever. Then I got on Wellbutrin and literally ten days later all of that behavior just completely ended, and I returned to taking care of important shit and being productive. No willpower required. I just suddenly felt compelled to do different things. Just saying. Wellbutrin is known to fuck with dopamine, presumably sometimes for the better.

ghostbrainalpha 4y ago
How many years ago was that?

FrankyHollywood 4y ago

I do think one should not bring it all to adhd being a physiological deficiency of the brain. For me personally it is also about being above average smart. I'm intensely bored by a lot of people and activities. I lose interest, can't remember a lot, get irritated easily. After many years I have some good friends, work which suits me, I know how to leasure well, basically I know how to amuse and challenge myself and don't experience lots of the adhs symptoms anymore.