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Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway: I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues pe

Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway: I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly. Christianity and Judaism both have excellent resources. Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers. Edit: for those asking for specific recommendations. It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment. However, I can suggest that you investigate Mussar and look up some books in English. “Musar is a path of contemplative practices and exercises that have evolved over the past thousand years to help an individual soul to pinpoint and then to break through the barriers that surround and obstruct the flow of inner light in our lives. Musar is a treasury of techniques and understandings that offers immensely valuable guidance for the journey of our lives.... The goal of Musar practice is to release the light of holiness that lives within the soul. The roots of all of our thoughts and actions can be traced to the depths of the soul, beyond the reach of the light of consciousness, and so the methods Musar provides include meditations, guided contemplations, exercises and chants that are all intended to penetrate down to the darkness of the subconscious, to bring about change right at the root of our nature.“

flycaliguy 4y ago
I’m sure I’ve read a few dozen of the same old AA debates on HN, but, yeah it worked for my old man. AA, in particular the serenity prayer, has at least some overlap with the more tech friendly pursuit of Stoic philosophy. “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
- projektfu 4y ago
  My issue with AA is that people can seek attention by relapsing. Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama.
  - cassepipe 4y ago
    Interesting take. Is it from experience or an ego boost by comparing yourself to those who have relapsed ?
    - projektfu 4y ago
      Can you ask more politely or are you dissing me intentionally?
      - rahoulb 4y ago
        Saying > Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama is very impolite to everyone who has ever struggled with any addiction.
      - tonyarkles 4y ago
        Coming at this as both someone who’s addicted to tobacco and has ADHD, I’ve spent a good chunk of my life having people naively (at best) or condescendingly (at worst) tell me things like: - you just need to quit cold turkey, how hard can it possibly be to not do something? - have you tried focusing? - you should try making todo lists! - if you would just sit still and listen, you could do better on your homework! While I do agree that the parent wasn’t the most polite, comments like yours definitely fall somewhere in the naive-condescending spectrum and I read the parent’s comment as trying to figure which end of that spectrum it came from.
        projektfu 4y ago
        I agree with you that telling people to do things that do not work for them is not helpful. However, there is no substance you can stop taking to cure your ADHD. Any advice for an alcoholic that does not include "stop drinking" is not good advice. Every alcohol-related problem stems from the alcohol. It may not be everything needed for their recovery, but it has to be the basis. AA at least gets this right. However, AA paints a picture of addicts as people who are unable to ever get this aspect of their life under control. Unlike non-drinkers, AA alcoholics are always fighting the demon Alcohol. The organization does not believe in full recovery. Sometimes I have read a no-true-Scotsman formulation which says that if you can survive sober without AA, then you were not really an alcoholic. How is this helpful? I think the proof is really in the pudding. AA has a lot of former members who still do not drink. These are people who quit drinking and eventually found the meetings unhelpful. I live without fear of relapse. This is because I know that I will never "need" alcohol again. To address the other side of what you are talking about, I hope that one day I will be able to live properly with ADHD. As of yet, we have not found an approach that generally works. Stimulants are helpful but they are a band-aid on the problem and have side effects. Behavioral therapy is helpful, too, albeit a bit mild in effect. I hope that when a good approach is developed, I will have the sense to try it.
- cassepipe 4y ago
  Quoted in Robert Sapolsky's book "Why Zebra don't get ulcers" on stress (highly recommended). It's a nice quote because it is a bit more interesting than common popular wisdom that exists across humanity and in all religions simply telling you : "Accept what you cannot change" That is often elided even more by "Accept your situation" or even "Obey" providing great convenience to the powers that be.
BbzzbB 4y ago
Got anything more specific to recommend? I'd like to read the main books of the main religions eventually out of personal culture, but they won't get to the top of the reading pile any time soon. Meanwhile, I'm sure procrastination, motivation and discipline are behaviors that religious scholars had to develop even in a pre-Internet world so I'm sure there are interesting takes written on the subject. I recall some reknown writer from a few centuries (like 16th/17th century?) writing about his struggles with procrastination and how he eliminated distractions (lol!) from his working environment.
- kldavis4 4y ago
  Check out this essay https://renovare.org/articles/self-denial-without-self-hatred https://renovare.org/articles/self-denial-without-self-hatre...
  - BbzzbB 4y ago
    Whereas self-indulgence is procrastination and self-denial is altruism & giving yourself (time and what not) to others?
- farrelle25 4y ago
  The ancient Christian monks battled against procrastination, lack of motivation, etc.... they called it "Acedia" aka "The noon-day devil"... Apparently the monks felt a huge urge just to sleep, rest and abandon their study around midday... it was a fairly well recognised psycho-spiritual problem in the middle ages for some monastic orders...
  - BbzzbB 4y ago
    Thanks a lot for the terminology, looking at Google's first page for "Christian monk procrastination" I'm not sure I would've found it if I even looked for it. They're interesting inputs for Marginalia's search engine FWIW.
projektfu 4y ago
Can you be a little more specific?
igorkraw 4y ago
I'm not against religion, but you just want to add you don't need religion to get what I think is the good core of religions: healing stories and narratives, texts, mantras, rituals that help you in the moment, a community which shares your perspective and in the end, an explanation for existential dread, horrible things happenings and a way to get meaning. You can find it in humanism, you can find it in secular philosophy, you can get therapy, you can find it in social political communities, it's in many places. You can even get some old bearded dude tell you what to do if that's what you need. Religion is just one way to have faith.
- SnowHill9902 4y ago
  Sure. Religion is a framework that you have to accept. There may be other perfectly valid frameworks, no doubt.
- mantas 4y ago
  The difference is that religion is usually a known & tried way to run a society. It may be not perfect, but otherwise old religions wouldn't survive. Meanwhile many modern replacements usually don't have any longevity. Maybe one of them will survive but only time will tell.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    I thinking you're confusing causality here. The vast majority have staying power because of two primary things. Have children, teach those children your religion. In the days before mass education and when huge numbers of children died in early age making this a memnatic was an important way for societal continuation. This says nothing about it's continued usefulness after a paradigm shift.
    - mantas 4y ago
      There's no paradigm shift yet. Procreation is still necessary for societal continuation as long as BigTech can't print babies out of nothing.
loudmax 4y ago
Islam also has significant things to say on the issue. Hinduism and Buddhism likely have insights as well. Zoroastrianism may also have something to offer here. Maybe it's time to revive it.
- SnowHill9902 4y ago
  It’s possible. I only mention what I’m familiar with.
- fartcannon 4y ago
  Zoroastrianism is still practiced. I met one just the other day. A quick google backs up your point though, there might only be a couple hundred thousand left.
kanonieer 4y ago
> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  Weird approach to attack the substance of this sentence, since psychology is the most vague of sciences.
  - kanonieer 4y ago
    There's no substance in the sentence I quoted. That's what I pointed out. I haven't expressed any opinions regarding psychology. > since psychology is the most vague of sciences But since you make this claim, we can talk about it. So what's your advice? See religious scholars instead of board certified psychologists?
    - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
      My advice is to keep an open mind to the possibility of someone having some level of wisdom without having an official degree™ And yes, I used the word wisdom on purpose :)
  - Sholmesy 4y ago
    To be fair, the parent made the claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that.
  - WHA8m 4y ago
    Depends on how you understand 'science'. I wouldn't describe empirical science as 'vague'. It doesn't aim for the core of a thing like other fields do. I mean, things are changing, but the goal for most psychologists is to help people.
- bowsamic 4y ago
aordano 4y ago
Religious beliefes provide a strong moral compass as a semi-coherent set that lets you define stances about a lot of things in your life without having to gs through the hassle and difficulties of building them. As long as it's a serious belief and adherence to the provided guidelines and not just posturing used to justify decadent conducts. I am not religious and personally i think is best to develop this on your own than taking a prepackaged system, but the utility and practicality of having ssmething already done and battle-tested is undeniable. Just like you don't need to reinvent the wheel and write a complex library on your own when there's one available, sometimes is best to just use a prepackaged beliefs set and moral system to follow. Many people are even unable to produce that on their own and epd up disparaged, aimless, living their lives without any understanding of right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral. For what religions are and what they do provide, i personally think some branches of buddhism are better, like the Sokka Gakkai International's approach provides. I don't agree with the sentence that religious scholars are the best psychologists because they only can provide guidance inside what fits this prepackaged framework-for-living they adopted, and in many many cases (i.e. mentall illnesses, deep issues, moral hardship in grey areas, etc) they are unable to effectively help in any significant way. Good news is that psychology isn't incompatible with religion and both can coexist peacefully, and one can get the best of both worlds wathout thinking one is best; they work in different ways and provide different things, and IMO they aren't directly comparable, as a psychologist cannot help you very well in terms of religion, and a religious scholar cannot help you very well in terms of psychology (except for the thinfs that fit witin the religious framework chosen). So all in all, i agree that religion as a valid choice and should be part of discourse, as sometimes it can very well be the best course of action. Just don't agree with throwing blanket statements of what's best or not in a world as plastic and complex as the one we live in.
spoiler 4y ago
An alternate to religion is Meditation. IMO, a lot of spiritual practices share very similar mental mechanics (eg mantras and prayers, various forms of fasting, support networks, etc)
Scarblac 4y ago
> It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment. That ship sailed a while ago, my parents aren't religious, and I don't know any religious people.
paskozdilar 4y ago
The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the doubt", which I strongly disagree with - doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular religions. And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy. So I'd personally recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion. Bertrand Russell (also known for his mathematical work) is an excellent place to start. EDIT: For those who disagree, I'd recommend a Russell's essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" [0]. It is quite short and readable. https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
- seti0Cha 4y ago
  That's only true on the folk-religion side of things. I can't speak to other faiths, but serious Christian thought has always engaged with doubt.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    12 years of growing up in Christian schools. Doubt came up a lot. Depended on the speaker too. Many would talk about their struggles. Times when they got angry at God, or fell away. Or there reasoning on why God exists. One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      > One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ. How can one even begin to attempt that task if one truly doubts that God exists? Also, is believing a God of some sort not exactly what a religion is?
      - treeman79 4y ago
        Religion is a set of rules and traditions. Perform 50 hail marries. Light 50 candles. Only eat X on whatever day. A relationship is trying to understand God. What he means. How you can serve him. What kind of life Christ lived. How to live as an example to others. Everyone has doubts. Most of my teachers would talk about times that they struggled. It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all powerful God. that loves you for you. It also takes faith to believe that universe popped out of nothing, the conditions for life happened to be just right, and that it’s also meaningless. Maybe Christians are wrong. But maybe not. Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.
bowsamic 4y ago
Buddhism also has a well developed psychological system that everyone seems to ignore
- cies 4y ago
  I truly think Buddhism has the best offer here on addictive behavior. Detachment is a main topic, their teaching can be consumed in "secular" way (with needed to believe in any unseen phenomena), the teaching does not place much outside of oneself.
bytematic 4y ago
Yikes
paulryanrogers 4y ago
Nothing quite like fear of eternal damnation to motivate oneself.
- seti0Cha 4y ago
  That's a strawman.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Not really, it was a big motivator for me in three decades I wasted believing indoctrinated garbage. Thankfully I broke out of that tar pit of magical thinking.
    - seti0Cha 4y ago
      It's a straw man in the context of using faith to battle addiction, regardless of the role it played in your personal life. Virtually no one advocates trying to scare addicts into recovery with the threat of hell.
- mantas 4y ago
  The problem is that many people otherwise don't have motivation. Why strive for anything? Especially when the very bare minimum for survival is already covered by community.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Really? The only thing that will motivate them is a baseless claim about life/suffering after death?
    - mantas 4y ago
      What else?
      - 4y ago
misiti3780 4y ago
christianity is most certainly not the solution, therapy is
- tonyarkles 4y ago
  I’m going to start by absolutely agreeing with you on the second half: I have had direct personal contact with a number of addicts over the years, and in virtually all cases it started (and generally continued to be) as a way to escape or numb some kind of unaddressed trauma or other emotional pain. Victims of (childhood or adult) abuse, parental rejection for whatever reason, etc. Additionally, people who I wouldn’t categorize as addicts but rather as… acute substance abusers. The people who don’t drink all week but go to the bar with some friends and end up drinking a dozen beer. Therapy has changed a lot of people around me’s lives for the better. Indisputably. I have seen 20-year alcoholics change virtually overnight when their abusers are finally caught and the addict-victim goes and talks it through with a therapist. Where I’m going to disagree, though, is that this is a black and white “Christianity or therapy” issue. I’m coming at this pragmatically; I haven’t been to church in almost 20 years now and religion is virtually non-existent in my life. There’s two things, though, with religion in general that can be hugely useful for someone struggling with addiction and/or substance abuse: - Therapy-like religious guidance. Many denominations of Christianity (and other religions, but I am not particularly familiar with the exact customs) encourage you to share your burdens with either the leadership or broader community. - Community itself. Beyond the primary “you are destroying your body” issues with addiction, one of the worst secondary effects is the social effects. When you have a substance abuse problem, “ordinary” people will start to distance from you. This can either end up with you just isolating from the world and getting lonelier (amplifying the problem) or seeking community with whoever you can find who won’t reject you (other people with substance abuse problems… amplifying the problem) Religion can provide these things and while it’s not for me, I have a hard time dismissing it outright. Especially since we have, as society has become more secular, mostly failed at establishing accessible community institutions that provide these things. One of the most interesting things to me is that almost every other community is generally focused around either specific activities (eg a rock climbing gym, martial arts, bird watching, knitting) or specific professions (eg software developer meet-ups). Church is one of the few places in the world that I’m likely to encounter a very broad cross-section of society. That all being said, quality varies dramatically. There are some churches that are, to me, completely toxic and have strayed far from “bringing light into this world”. YMMV, but it works for some people and provides exactly what they need to heal.
WHA8m 4y ago
No need for > Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway I am actually on the contrarian side of you, but thanks for putting you out there. I understand and respect your point and everything, but there is one thing, that I want to put out regarding what you said. To state the following, is quite problematic: > Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers. Without going into detail, for every profession, there are people who are good and bad at it. This has nothing to do with any background or anything. The difference with psychologists and priests/ missionaries/ etc. is, that one is certified and the other is not necessarily certified. This makes a huge difference in liability of the term/ role and it's rather dangerous to put them in the same bag. And I don't think to make this distinction is not dismissive.
jstummbillig 4y ago
> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers. Citation not required, as long as you believe, assumedly?
sidibe 4y ago
I've never had anything against religion and know it is good for my family but there's just no way I'll ever get over my skepticism so it's not a choice. I think most nonreligious people are the same
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  >I think most nonreligious people are the same. Having spent two years as a missionary in a majority atheist country (the Czech Republic) I'd have to say that wasn't my experience. For most Czechs, it seemed to be more of a general apathy about religion and the idea of God, not any serious skepticism or an active choice not to believe.
Jaruzel 4y ago
> I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly. This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist. To me, Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones. If you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes. However, IF you are a religious person, and find meaning in your religious books, then take the win, and enjoy that path. It's just that it's not a path everyone can take.
- dboreham 4y ago
  > This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist. Then try Buddhism? More of a philosophy than a religion, and seems to have hit on the idea thousands of years ago that most problems in humanity are to do with mental illness of one sort or another.
  - annyeonghada 4y ago
    Buddhism is definitely a religion with a specific epistemology, claims on the supernatural (karma, cycle of samsara), manifestations of the divine (Bodhisattva), rituals, chants and prayers. Some Buddhist sects can be pretty radical, even. Buddhism as conceptualized in the western world is a marketing strategy that appeals to people thanks to the fact the Buddhism is exotic, the same reason Christian symbolism is à la mode in Asia (just see how many anime have Christian themes). If you could repackage Christianity to convince these people that it is new, exotic and exciting they would convert immediately. By the way, there are philosophical traditions, both in Buddhism and Christianity, that reject any supernatural claim and see religion as a useful but not true moral framework, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism P.S.: I'm an atheist. I'm not defending a religion or another.
- lethologica 4y ago
  I’ve known plenty of people who get a ton of meaning out of fictional works too. Just because you view it as fictional doesn’t mean it can’t have meaning.
jsmith99 4y ago
There are 'religious but not spiritual' groups for those who appreciate the structure of religion in their life but who don't believe in God. Atheist Quakers are an established group, and some Jewish groups seem close to an atheistic religion.
bitexploder 4y ago
Religion for a modern person with the easy access to the knowledge we now have is effectively just being intellectually lazy. Some people do need help right now, but I don’t think religions are any better than other addiction resources. AA gets a pass for me because I know atheists that used it and the religious component is easy to ignore. AA works because of the group and accountability, not faith in some higher power. Anyway, not to be insulting, but it is all a bunch of made up nonsense for a time when we did not have actual explanatory knowledge for our existence and universe. We do now. Religion and its institutions are dying out in industrialized nations because they have lost their claim to having all the answers.
- SnowHill9902 4y ago
  Are you saying that we (collectively) or at least you know why we exist and the meaning of life?
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    In broad strokes, yep.
    - fipar 4y ago
      I'm an atheist, yet I don't think science can answer why we exist and what is the meaning of life. I think those questions are syntactically valid but semantically invalid. We kind of (in the 'broad strokes' you say) think () we know how we got here, how life got started, etc. But why? How do you know that? It's an honest question because, again, I don't think that question makes sense so I'd love to know your take on it. () I say we think we know because I'm actually agnostic (I typically say 'atheist' because it stops some conversion attempts I'm not looking for from even starting, judging by your two comments on this thread I reckoned I can give you the honest answer as you won't try to convert me into anything!) and I believe we can only know what we conclude from the information collected by our senses and our thinking process after that, but an error in either the information collection (think of how the first scientific estimates of the age of the planet were off by a long shot on account of choosing a poor thing to measure -- I'm thinking about the work of Halley here) or in the thought process would result in bad knowledge, and it seems to me there's a part of the scientific-minded population right now that has a blind spot for this: there's overconfidence in science.
sleepdreamy 4y ago
As someone who was religious when they are younger but no longer, why? I used to be a devout Christian until I went exploring the world and saw the unreal amount of massive suffering, imbedded greed etc; If god is real, he is a cruel god. We have the technology and means to ensure every person on this earth does not go hungry and has a safe place to sleep at night. But humans do human stuff. You probably pass plenty of homeless in your daily life and never look/think of them again. Yet somehow religion constantly preaches harmony and giving to others. Most religious people I know are inherently greedy and abide by Capitalistic morals and act as such. I guess I could create a bubble for myself and not care about others at an inherently deep level like most humans on earth do. What would a religious Scholar/Teachings do for me if I can plainly see that teachings are only followed when convenient or warped to fit my world narrative? What would you suggest?
- grp 4y ago
  After the Irish Potato Famine that George Boole lived through, he worked on a paper named "Origin of Evil". His conclusion was: Absolute evil does not exist and pain is an instrument of good. I can't find it online, my source is the documentary "The Genius of George Boole" [1]. Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death [2] could be a related reading too. I remember that I enjoyed it in a fun way. Also a dumb theory of mine is: suffering is the proof that you are still alive. [1] https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855 https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death
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zhdc1 4y ago
For those of you complaining about SnowHill9902 recommending religion, please check out Optimize.me (free) for something secular. It's still, IMO, the best collection of practical self-help knowledge and insight available on the internet.
r_c_a_d 4y ago
And for atheists like me, you can still learn a lot from religions. I got a lot out of Alain de Botton's "Religion for Atheists" https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159 https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159
boppo1 4y ago
How do I get the psychological benefits without having belief? Let me lay a story on you: I fell in love with this girl who I had known on/off for a long time. I found out she was an escort (quietly but distinctly confirmed payment-for-sex) in her spare time (she was a student when this all happened). This was really upsetting and had me very distraught. I simultaneously could see a life with her, but also felt disgusted at the escorting. I wished I could speak with my grandfather about it. I knew he'd know what to tell me. But he had recently passed away. "Well, what did I like about Grandpa? Could I find a substitute? I need like, an old person who has reliable wisdom and experience, not just some wino who has hung on. Why isn't this a thing? An old person a community can approach for advice on..." "Oh I think I need a priest." When I went looking for one though, it was all about accepting Jesus into my heart and spiritual learnings and miracles that I must accept literally happened, etc. Real hard to find the "old wise person who can help me navigate this thing".
- starwind 4y ago
  There’s this Western conception of Buddhism that stripes away a lot of the religious beliefs—Siddhartha wasn’t divine at all, there is no Amitabha, Ksitigarbha is a folk tale. The emphasis is all on practice. Meditation, the 4 noble truths, Middle Way, etc. This doesn’t represent true Buddhism like Asians would recognize it, but I think it does highlight how you can build a practice and adopt the world outlook without the supernatural. A low-level Zen inspired practice may be what you’re looking for
FrankyHollywood 4y ago
The bible is a collection of many books and resources by various authors. It contains valuable ideas and experience which have survived the centuries. Many religious people however like it to be a 'single black & white truth of the all-mighty invisible ghost who says you are a guilty person'. For me the bible is the same as any other (old) book where people write about their life experience. A good example is 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius. There is a lot of wisdom in it, and I have read it more than once over the years. It makes you reflect on your own life and decisions you make.

flycaliguy 4y ago

I’m sure I’ve read a few dozen of the same old AA debates on HN, but, yeah it worked for my old man. AA, in particular the serenity prayer, has at least some overlap with the more tech friendly pursuit of Stoic philosophy. “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

projektfu 4y ago
My issue with AA is that people can seek attention by relapsing. Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama.
- cassepipe 4y ago
  Interesting take. Is it from experience or an ego boost by comparing yourself to those who have relapsed ?
  - projektfu 4y ago
    Can you ask more politely or are you dissing me intentionally?
    - rahoulb 4y ago
      Saying > Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama is very impolite to everyone who has ever struggled with any addiction.
    - tonyarkles 4y ago
      Coming at this as both someone who’s addicted to tobacco and has ADHD, I’ve spent a good chunk of my life having people naively (at best) or condescendingly (at worst) tell me things like: - you just need to quit cold turkey, how hard can it possibly be to not do something? - have you tried focusing? - you should try making todo lists! - if you would just sit still and listen, you could do better on your homework! While I do agree that the parent wasn’t the most polite, comments like yours definitely fall somewhere in the naive-condescending spectrum and I read the parent’s comment as trying to figure which end of that spectrum it came from.
      - projektfu 4y ago
        I agree with you that telling people to do things that do not work for them is not helpful. However, there is no substance you can stop taking to cure your ADHD. Any advice for an alcoholic that does not include "stop drinking" is not good advice. Every alcohol-related problem stems from the alcohol. It may not be everything needed for their recovery, but it has to be the basis. AA at least gets this right. However, AA paints a picture of addicts as people who are unable to ever get this aspect of their life under control. Unlike non-drinkers, AA alcoholics are always fighting the demon Alcohol. The organization does not believe in full recovery. Sometimes I have read a no-true-Scotsman formulation which says that if you can survive sober without AA, then you were not really an alcoholic. How is this helpful? I think the proof is really in the pudding. AA has a lot of former members who still do not drink. These are people who quit drinking and eventually found the meetings unhelpful. I live without fear of relapse. This is because I know that I will never "need" alcohol again. To address the other side of what you are talking about, I hope that one day I will be able to live properly with ADHD. As of yet, we have not found an approach that generally works. Stimulants are helpful but they are a band-aid on the problem and have side effects. Behavioral therapy is helpful, too, albeit a bit mild in effect. I hope that when a good approach is developed, I will have the sense to try it.
cassepipe 4y ago
Quoted in Robert Sapolsky's book "Why Zebra don't get ulcers" on stress (highly recommended). It's a nice quote because it is a bit more interesting than common popular wisdom that exists across humanity and in all religions simply telling you : "Accept what you cannot change" That is often elided even more by "Accept your situation" or even "Obey" providing great convenience to the powers that be.

BbzzbB 4y ago

Got anything more specific to recommend? I'd like to read the main books of the main religions eventually out of personal culture, but they won't get to the top of the reading pile any time soon. Meanwhile, I'm sure procrastination, motivation and discipline are behaviors that religious scholars had to develop even in a pre-Internet world so I'm sure there are interesting takes written on the subject. I recall some reknown writer from a few centuries (like 16th/17th century?) writing about his struggles with procrastination and how he eliminated distractions (lol!) from his working environment.

kldavis4 4y ago
Check out this essay https://renovare.org/articles/self-denial-without-self-hatred https://renovare.org/articles/self-denial-without-self-hatre...
- BbzzbB 4y ago
  Whereas self-indulgence is procrastination and self-denial is altruism & giving yourself (time and what not) to others?
farrelle25 4y ago
The ancient Christian monks battled against procrastination, lack of motivation, etc.... they called it "Acedia" aka "The noon-day devil"... Apparently the monks felt a huge urge just to sleep, rest and abandon their study around midday... it was a fairly well recognised psycho-spiritual problem in the middle ages for some monastic orders...
- BbzzbB 4y ago
  Thanks a lot for the terminology, looking at Google's first page for "Christian monk procrastination" I'm not sure I would've found it if I even looked for it. They're interesting inputs for Marginalia's search engine FWIW.

projektfu 4y ago

Can you be a little more specific?

igorkraw 4y ago

I'm not against religion, but you just want to add you don't need religion to get what I think is the good core of religions: healing stories and narratives, texts, mantras, rituals that help you in the moment, a community which shares your perspective and in the end, an explanation for existential dread, horrible things happenings and a way to get meaning. You can find it in humanism, you can find it in secular philosophy, you can get therapy, you can find it in social political communities, it's in many places. You can even get some old bearded dude tell you what to do if that's what you need. Religion is just one way to have faith.

SnowHill9902 4y ago
Sure. Religion is a framework that you have to accept. There may be other perfectly valid frameworks, no doubt.
mantas 4y ago
The difference is that religion is usually a known & tried way to run a society. It may be not perfect, but otherwise old religions wouldn't survive. Meanwhile many modern replacements usually don't have any longevity. Maybe one of them will survive but only time will tell.
- pixl97 4y ago
  I thinking you're confusing causality here. The vast majority have staying power because of two primary things. Have children, teach those children your religion. In the days before mass education and when huge numbers of children died in early age making this a memnatic was an important way for societal continuation. This says nothing about it's continued usefulness after a paradigm shift.
  - mantas 4y ago
    There's no paradigm shift yet. Procreation is still necessary for societal continuation as long as BigTech can't print babies out of nothing.

loudmax 4y ago

Islam also has significant things to say on the issue. Hinduism and Buddhism likely have insights as well. Zoroastrianism may also have something to offer here. Maybe it's time to revive it.

SnowHill9902 4y ago
It’s possible. I only mention what I’m familiar with.
fartcannon 4y ago
Zoroastrianism is still practiced. I met one just the other day. A quick google backs up your point though, there might only be a couple hundred thousand left.

kanonieer 4y ago

> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?

4gotunameagain 4y ago
Weird approach to attack the substance of this sentence, since psychology is the most vague of sciences.
- kanonieer 4y ago
  There's no substance in the sentence I quoted. That's what I pointed out. I haven't expressed any opinions regarding psychology. > since psychology is the most vague of sciences But since you make this claim, we can talk about it. So what's your advice? See religious scholars instead of board certified psychologists?
  - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    My advice is to keep an open mind to the possibility of someone having some level of wisdom without having an official degree™ And yes, I used the word wisdom on purpose :)
- Sholmesy 4y ago
  To be fair, the parent made the claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that.
- WHA8m 4y ago
  Depends on how you understand 'science'. I wouldn't describe empirical science as 'vague'. It doesn't aim for the core of a thing like other fields do. I mean, things are changing, but the goal for most psychologists is to help people.
bowsamic 4y ago

aordano 4y ago

Religious beliefes provide a strong moral compass as a semi-coherent set that lets you define stances about a lot of things in your life without having to gs through the hassle and difficulties of building them. As long as it's a serious belief and adherence to the provided guidelines and not just posturing used to justify decadent conducts. I am not religious and personally i think is best to develop this on your own than taking a prepackaged system, but the utility and practicality of having ssmething already done and battle-tested is undeniable. Just like you don't need to reinvent the wheel and write a complex library on your own when there's one available, sometimes is best to just use a prepackaged beliefs set and moral system to follow. Many people are even unable to produce that on their own and epd up disparaged, aimless, living their lives without any understanding of right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral. For what religions are and what they do provide, i personally think some branches of buddhism are better, like the Sokka Gakkai International's approach provides. I don't agree with the sentence that religious scholars are the best psychologists because they only can provide guidance inside what fits this prepackaged framework-for-living they adopted, and in many many cases (i.e. mentall illnesses, deep issues, moral hardship in grey areas, etc) they are unable to effectively help in any significant way. Good news is that psychology isn't incompatible with religion and both can coexist peacefully, and one can get the best of both worlds wathout thinking one is best; they work in different ways and provide different things, and IMO they aren't directly comparable, as a psychologist cannot help you very well in terms of religion, and a religious scholar cannot help you very well in terms of psychology (except for the thinfs that fit witin the religious framework chosen). So all in all, i agree that religion as a valid choice and should be part of discourse, as sometimes it can very well be the best course of action. Just don't agree with throwing blanket statements of what's best or not in a world as plastic and complex as the one we live in.

spoiler 4y ago

An alternate to religion is Meditation. IMO, a lot of spiritual practices share very similar mental mechanics (eg mantras and prayers, various forms of fasting, support networks, etc)

Scarblac 4y ago

> It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment. That ship sailed a while ago, my parents aren't religious, and I don't know any religious people.

paskozdilar 4y ago

The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the doubt", which I strongly disagree with - doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular religions. And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy. So I'd personally recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion. Bertrand Russell (also known for his mathematical work) is an excellent place to start. EDIT: For those who disagree, I'd recommend a Russell's essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" [0]. It is quite short and readable. https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

seti0Cha 4y ago
That's only true on the folk-religion side of things. I can't speak to other faiths, but serious Christian thought has always engaged with doubt.
- treeman79 4y ago
  12 years of growing up in Christian schools. Doubt came up a lot. Depended on the speaker too. Many would talk about their struggles. Times when they got angry at God, or fell away. Or there reasoning on why God exists. One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    > One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ. How can one even begin to attempt that task if one truly doubts that God exists? Also, is believing a God of some sort not exactly what a religion is?
    - treeman79 4y ago
      Religion is a set of rules and traditions. Perform 50 hail marries. Light 50 candles. Only eat X on whatever day. A relationship is trying to understand God. What he means. How you can serve him. What kind of life Christ lived. How to live as an example to others. Everyone has doubts. Most of my teachers would talk about times that they struggled. It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all powerful God. that loves you for you. It also takes faith to believe that universe popped out of nothing, the conditions for life happened to be just right, and that it’s also meaningless. Maybe Christians are wrong. But maybe not. Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.

bowsamic 4y ago

Buddhism also has a well developed psychological system that everyone seems to ignore

cies 4y ago
I truly think Buddhism has the best offer here on addictive behavior. Detachment is a main topic, their teaching can be consumed in "secular" way (with needed to believe in any unseen phenomena), the teaching does not place much outside of oneself.

bytematic 4y ago

Yikes

paulryanrogers 4y ago

Nothing quite like fear of eternal damnation to motivate oneself.

seti0Cha 4y ago
That's a strawman.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Not really, it was a big motivator for me in three decades I wasted believing indoctrinated garbage. Thankfully I broke out of that tar pit of magical thinking.
  - seti0Cha 4y ago
    It's a straw man in the context of using faith to battle addiction, regardless of the role it played in your personal life. Virtually no one advocates trying to scare addicts into recovery with the threat of hell.
mantas 4y ago
The problem is that many people otherwise don't have motivation. Why strive for anything? Especially when the very bare minimum for survival is already covered by community.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Really? The only thing that will motivate them is a baseless claim about life/suffering after death?
  - mantas 4y ago
    What else?
    - 4y ago

misiti3780 4y ago

christianity is most certainly not the solution, therapy is

tonyarkles 4y ago
I’m going to start by absolutely agreeing with you on the second half: I have had direct personal contact with a number of addicts over the years, and in virtually all cases it started (and generally continued to be) as a way to escape or numb some kind of unaddressed trauma or other emotional pain. Victims of (childhood or adult) abuse, parental rejection for whatever reason, etc. Additionally, people who I wouldn’t categorize as addicts but rather as… acute substance abusers. The people who don’t drink all week but go to the bar with some friends and end up drinking a dozen beer. Therapy has changed a lot of people around me’s lives for the better. Indisputably. I have seen 20-year alcoholics change virtually overnight when their abusers are finally caught and the addict-victim goes and talks it through with a therapist. Where I’m going to disagree, though, is that this is a black and white “Christianity or therapy” issue. I’m coming at this pragmatically; I haven’t been to church in almost 20 years now and religion is virtually non-existent in my life. There’s two things, though, with religion in general that can be hugely useful for someone struggling with addiction and/or substance abuse: - Therapy-like religious guidance. Many denominations of Christianity (and other religions, but I am not particularly familiar with the exact customs) encourage you to share your burdens with either the leadership or broader community. - Community itself. Beyond the primary “you are destroying your body” issues with addiction, one of the worst secondary effects is the social effects. When you have a substance abuse problem, “ordinary” people will start to distance from you. This can either end up with you just isolating from the world and getting lonelier (amplifying the problem) or seeking community with whoever you can find who won’t reject you (other people with substance abuse problems… amplifying the problem) Religion can provide these things and while it’s not for me, I have a hard time dismissing it outright. Especially since we have, as society has become more secular, mostly failed at establishing accessible community institutions that provide these things. One of the most interesting things to me is that almost every other community is generally focused around either specific activities (eg a rock climbing gym, martial arts, bird watching, knitting) or specific professions (eg software developer meet-ups). Church is one of the few places in the world that I’m likely to encounter a very broad cross-section of society. That all being said, quality varies dramatically. There are some churches that are, to me, completely toxic and have strayed far from “bringing light into this world”. YMMV, but it works for some people and provides exactly what they need to heal.

WHA8m 4y ago

No need for > Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway I am actually on the contrarian side of you, but thanks for putting you out there. I understand and respect your point and everything, but there is one thing, that I want to put out regarding what you said. To state the following, is quite problematic: > Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers. Without going into detail, for every profession, there are people who are good and bad at it. This has nothing to do with any background or anything. The difference with psychologists and priests/ missionaries/ etc. is, that one is certified and the other is not necessarily certified. This makes a huge difference in liability of the term/ role and it's rather dangerous to put them in the same bag. And I don't think to make this distinction is not dismissive.

jstummbillig 4y ago

> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers. Citation not required, as long as you believe, assumedly?

sidibe 4y ago

I've never had anything against religion and know it is good for my family but there's just no way I'll ever get over my skepticism so it's not a choice. I think most nonreligious people are the same

HideousKojima 4y ago
>I think most nonreligious people are the same. Having spent two years as a missionary in a majority atheist country (the Czech Republic) I'd have to say that wasn't my experience. For most Czechs, it seemed to be more of a general apathy about religion and the idea of God, not any serious skepticism or an active choice not to believe.

Jaruzel 4y ago

> I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly. This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist. To me, Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones. If you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes. However, IF you are a religious person, and find meaning in your religious books, then take the win, and enjoy that path. It's just that it's not a path everyone can take.

dboreham 4y ago
> This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist. Then try Buddhism? More of a philosophy than a religion, and seems to have hit on the idea thousands of years ago that most problems in humanity are to do with mental illness of one sort or another.
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  Buddhism is definitely a religion with a specific epistemology, claims on the supernatural (karma, cycle of samsara), manifestations of the divine (Bodhisattva), rituals, chants and prayers. Some Buddhist sects can be pretty radical, even. Buddhism as conceptualized in the western world is a marketing strategy that appeals to people thanks to the fact the Buddhism is exotic, the same reason Christian symbolism is à la mode in Asia (just see how many anime have Christian themes). If you could repackage Christianity to convince these people that it is new, exotic and exciting they would convert immediately. By the way, there are philosophical traditions, both in Buddhism and Christianity, that reject any supernatural claim and see religion as a useful but not true moral framework, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism P.S.: I'm an atheist. I'm not defending a religion or another.
lethologica 4y ago
I’ve known plenty of people who get a ton of meaning out of fictional works too. Just because you view it as fictional doesn’t mean it can’t have meaning.

jsmith99 4y ago

There are 'religious but not spiritual' groups for those who appreciate the structure of religion in their life but who don't believe in God. Atheist Quakers are an established group, and some Jewish groups seem close to an atheistic religion.

bitexploder 4y ago

Religion for a modern person with the easy access to the knowledge we now have is effectively just being intellectually lazy. Some people do need help right now, but I don’t think religions are any better than other addiction resources. AA gets a pass for me because I know atheists that used it and the religious component is easy to ignore. AA works because of the group and accountability, not faith in some higher power. Anyway, not to be insulting, but it is all a bunch of made up nonsense for a time when we did not have actual explanatory knowledge for our existence and universe. We do now. Religion and its institutions are dying out in industrialized nations because they have lost their claim to having all the answers.

SnowHill9902 4y ago
Are you saying that we (collectively) or at least you know why we exist and the meaning of life?
- bitexploder 4y ago
  In broad strokes, yep.
  - fipar 4y ago
    I'm an atheist, yet I don't think science can answer why we exist and what is the meaning of life. I think those questions are syntactically valid but semantically invalid. We kind of (in the 'broad strokes' you say) think () we know how we got here, how life got started, etc. But why? How do you know that? It's an honest question because, again, I don't think that question makes sense so I'd love to know your take on it. () I say we think we know because I'm actually agnostic (I typically say 'atheist' because it stops some conversion attempts I'm not looking for from even starting, judging by your two comments on this thread I reckoned I can give you the honest answer as you won't try to convert me into anything!) and I believe we can only know what we conclude from the information collected by our senses and our thinking process after that, but an error in either the information collection (think of how the first scientific estimates of the age of the planet were off by a long shot on account of choosing a poor thing to measure -- I'm thinking about the work of Halley here) or in the thought process would result in bad knowledge, and it seems to me there's a part of the scientific-minded population right now that has a blind spot for this: there's overconfidence in science.

sleepdreamy 4y ago

As someone who was religious when they are younger but no longer, why? I used to be a devout Christian until I went exploring the world and saw the unreal amount of massive suffering, imbedded greed etc; If god is real, he is a cruel god. We have the technology and means to ensure every person on this earth does not go hungry and has a safe place to sleep at night. But humans do human stuff. You probably pass plenty of homeless in your daily life and never look/think of them again. Yet somehow religion constantly preaches harmony and giving to others. Most religious people I know are inherently greedy and abide by Capitalistic morals and act as such. I guess I could create a bubble for myself and not care about others at an inherently deep level like most humans on earth do. What would a religious Scholar/Teachings do for me if I can plainly see that teachings are only followed when convenient or warped to fit my world narrative? What would you suggest?

grp 4y ago
After the Irish Potato Famine that George Boole lived through, he worked on a paper named "Origin of Evil". His conclusion was: Absolute evil does not exist and pain is an instrument of good. I can't find it online, my source is the documentary "The Genius of George Boole" [1]. Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death [2] could be a related reading too. I remember that I enjoyed it in a fun way. Also a dumb theory of mine is: suffering is the proof that you are still alive. [1] https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855 https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death

deleted 4y ago

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zhdc1 4y ago

For those of you complaining about SnowHill9902 recommending religion, please check out Optimize.me (free) for something secular. It's still, IMO, the best collection of practical self-help knowledge and insight available on the internet.

r_c_a_d 4y ago

And for atheists like me, you can still learn a lot from religions. I got a lot out of Alain de Botton's "Religion for Atheists" https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159 https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159

boppo1 4y ago

How do I get the psychological benefits without having belief? Let me lay a story on you: I fell in love with this girl who I had known on/off for a long time. I found out she was an escort (quietly but distinctly confirmed payment-for-sex) in her spare time (she was a student when this all happened). This was really upsetting and had me very distraught. I simultaneously could see a life with her, but also felt disgusted at the escorting. I wished I could speak with my grandfather about it. I knew he'd know what to tell me. But he had recently passed away. "Well, what did I like about Grandpa? Could I find a substitute? I need like, an old person who has reliable wisdom and experience, not just some wino who has hung on. Why isn't this a thing? An old person a community can approach for advice on..." "Oh I think I need a priest." When I went looking for one though, it was all about accepting Jesus into my heart and spiritual learnings and miracles that I must accept literally happened, etc. Real hard to find the "old wise person who can help me navigate this thing".

starwind 4y ago
There’s this Western conception of Buddhism that stripes away a lot of the religious beliefs—Siddhartha wasn’t divine at all, there is no Amitabha, Ksitigarbha is a folk tale. The emphasis is all on practice. Meditation, the 4 noble truths, Middle Way, etc. This doesn’t represent true Buddhism like Asians would recognize it, but I think it does highlight how you can build a practice and adopt the world outlook without the supernatural. A low-level Zen inspired practice may be what you’re looking for

FrankyHollywood 4y ago

The bible is a collection of many books and resources by various authors. It contains valuable ideas and experience which have survived the centuries. Many religious people however like it to be a 'single black & white truth of the all-mighty invisible ghost who says you are a guilty person'. For me the bible is the same as any other (old) book where people write about their life experience. A good example is 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius. There is a lot of wisdom in it, and I have read it more than once over the years. It makes you reflect on your own life and decisions you make.