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We need the lithium for cars. There is literally not enough lithium known of to build enough utility storage. And, they cost way more than alternatives. Utili

by ncmncm 4y ago

We need the lithium for cars. There is literally not enough lithium known of to build enough utility storage. And, they cost way more than alternatives. Utility batteries, where used, will be iron-air or molten metal. Light weight is no virtue in that use.

ben_w 4y ago
This seemed surprising, so I looked up the estimate of the available lithium reserves (20 million tons, seems low) and lithium needed per kWh (160g), which means we can make up to 113 TWh of batteries. If those numbers are correct and we want cars that each have 50 kWh batteries, we can have up to about 2.2 billion cars, so we either get more lithium (seawater is 1000x more in quantity but IIRC not economical at this time), or we don’t all get to have electric cars. This is making me go back to an older preference of mine, which is to have a really fat wire (order of 1m^2 cross section) going around the planet. Take years (literally) to mine and process that quantity, but in principle you can get winter solstice pre-dawn energy from your antipode. The losses, while large, are not catastrophic.
- dzdt 4y ago
  The usual definition of stated "reserves" is the amount of natural resource known to exist in explored, proven deposits. As the demand for a resource increases, more exploration is done and reserves increase. It is wildly incorrect to use reserves as an estimate of the total amount of the resource available.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    It's the total amount available in the next few years.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  China has announced an intention to build a cable from China to Chile to pick up Chilean solar power in the austral summer daytime. (Chile is very nearly antipodal to China.) Surprisingly, transmission loss is calculated to be only around 50%, which is completely tolerable. I doubt they will build it, in the end, but they really, usefully could. Long distance transmission has become very practical as the top-line cost of generation has fallen far below historic lows. You don't need a square meter in cross section. There will be a hell of a lot of long distance transmission lines. Singapore is all in on one to northern Australia. UK has signed a deal for one to Africa.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Ooh, neat, I missed that news. 50% losses is basically what I was expecting, it’s what you get from just using state-of-the-art HVDC cables. If there’s any single entity I expect to have both the economic power and originational capacity to do that, it’s the Chinese government. The main reason is that the cables are much cheaper than the storage (so a massive incentive if you can do it), but 15000 km * 1m^2 * density of copper is 1.3e8 tons, and current global annual production is 2e7 tons, and a similar problem for aluminium. Need a lot of organisation of the wider economy to pull that off. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export-solar-energy-to-asia-via-15000km-submarine-cable/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export...

by ncmncm 4y ago

ben_w 4y ago

This seemed surprising, so I looked up the estimate of the available lithium reserves (20 million tons, seems low) and lithium needed per kWh (160g), which means we can make up to 113 TWh of batteries. If those numbers are correct and we want cars that each have 50 kWh batteries, we can have up to about 2.2 billion cars, so we either get more lithium (seawater is 1000x more in quantity but IIRC not economical at this time), or we don’t all get to have electric cars. This is making me go back to an older preference of mine, which is to have a really fat wire (order of 1m^2 cross section) going around the planet. Take years (literally) to mine and process that quantity, but in principle you can get winter solstice pre-dawn energy from your antipode. The losses, while large, are not catastrophic.

dzdt 4y ago
The usual definition of stated "reserves" is the amount of natural resource known to exist in explored, proven deposits. As the demand for a resource increases, more exploration is done and reserves increase. It is wildly incorrect to use reserves as an estimate of the total amount of the resource available.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  It's the total amount available in the next few years.
ncmncm 4y ago
China has announced an intention to build a cable from China to Chile to pick up Chilean solar power in the austral summer daytime. (Chile is very nearly antipodal to China.) Surprisingly, transmission loss is calculated to be only around 50%, which is completely tolerable. I doubt they will build it, in the end, but they really, usefully could. Long distance transmission has become very practical as the top-line cost of generation has fallen far below historic lows. You don't need a square meter in cross section. There will be a hell of a lot of long distance transmission lines. Singapore is all in on one to northern Australia. UK has signed a deal for one to Africa.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Ooh, neat, I missed that news. 50% losses is basically what I was expecting, it’s what you get from just using state-of-the-art HVDC cables. If there’s any single entity I expect to have both the economic power and originational capacity to do that, it’s the Chinese government. The main reason is that the cables are much cheaper than the storage (so a massive incentive if you can do it), but 15000 km * 1m^2 * density of copper is 1.3e8 tons, and current global annual production is 2e7 tons, and a similar problem for aluminium. Need a lot of organisation of the wider economy to pull that off. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export-solar-energy-to-asia-via-15000km-submarine-cable/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export...