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If you really believe it doesn't have "any value at all" then I invite you to sell it short. That's a free $30,000. The nice thing about markets is that you can

by landa 4y ago

If you really believe it doesn't have "any value at all" then I invite you to sell it short. That's a free $30,000. The nice thing about markets is that you can express your opinion, and that market opinions without corresponding positions can be ignored.

908087 4y ago
1270018080 4y ago
It doesn't have any value at all, but the market can stay irrational longer than I can stay solvent.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Also the counterparty risk of shorting bitcoin
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    Also prices are manipulated like crazy to liquidate big bets like that
over_bridge 4y ago
There's a difference between having a price and having value. I could order a truck load of glitter and dump it on my lawn. It has no value to anyone but it still cost me money to obtain it. It's questionable that Bitcoin has any value but there is enough money sunk into that ecosystem and propping it up that it's unlikely to ever fall away completely. There are billionaires' egos at stake here!
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
The fact that I've seen many, many rejoinders to "crypto has no long term value" in the "well, just short it then" vein makes me think these talking points must be what the cool kids on r/Bitcoin or somewhere are spewing. I don't necessarily believe all crypto is going to zero, but for Bitcoin specifically I believe (a) that proof of work is definitely unsustainable as the market cap grows and (b) given the power of miners in the BTC protocol, I have a difficult time believing they'll ever transition off PoW (e.g. compared to what ETH has done). But, of course, shorting an asset requires conviction not just that its value is going down, but when. I would easily bet that within some decent extended time period, say 15 years, that the value of BTC will be zero or near zero. I am unaware how to short an asset feasibly over that long of a time period.
- landa 4y ago
  > cool kids on r/Bitcoin I don't use Reddit or any other social networks. This is the only site I post anything on. My suggestion to put a trade on instead of just saying stupid things on the Internet comes from institutional trading culture. Anyone can say anything. Almost nobody backs it up with money.
Nursie 4y ago
> I invite you to sell it short The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. Shorting for any decent stretch of time is not free, and you more or less have to do it on one of the many rigged casinos operating in the crypto space. It's a fool's game.
- jimmydorry 4y ago
  Banks and large investment firms are more than happy to create exotic instruments. With enough money at stake, you can definitely find an institution willing to take the other side of a bet against crypto (specifically BTC or ETH). If you want proof, refer to what happened in the lead-up to the 2008 Sub-Prime Mortgage crisis (or check out the movie The Big Short if you want somewhere to begin).
  - MrMan 4y ago
    there are BTC futures on CME, but the margin requirements are high because CME knows BTC is garbage.

by landa 4y ago

908087 4y ago

1270018080 4y ago

It doesn't have any value at all, but the market can stay irrational longer than I can stay solvent.

quickthrower2 4y ago
Also the counterparty risk of shorting bitcoin
- cycrutchfield 4y ago
  Also prices are manipulated like crazy to liquidate big bets like that

over_bridge 4y ago

There's a difference between having a price and having value. I could order a truck load of glitter and dump it on my lawn. It has no value to anyone but it still cost me money to obtain it. It's questionable that Bitcoin has any value but there is enough money sunk into that ecosystem and propping it up that it's unlikely to ever fall away completely. There are billionaires' egos at stake here!

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

The fact that I've seen many, many rejoinders to "crypto has no long term value" in the "well, just short it then" vein makes me think these talking points must be what the cool kids on r/Bitcoin or somewhere are spewing. I don't necessarily believe all crypto is going to zero, but for Bitcoin specifically I believe (a) that proof of work is definitely unsustainable as the market cap grows and (b) given the power of miners in the BTC protocol, I have a difficult time believing they'll ever transition off PoW (e.g. compared to what ETH has done). But, of course, shorting an asset requires conviction not just that its value is going down, but when. I would easily bet that within some decent extended time period, say 15 years, that the value of BTC will be zero or near zero. I am unaware how to short an asset feasibly over that long of a time period.

landa 4y ago
> cool kids on r/Bitcoin I don't use Reddit or any other social networks. This is the only site I post anything on. My suggestion to put a trade on instead of just saying stupid things on the Internet comes from institutional trading culture. Anyone can say anything. Almost nobody backs it up with money.

Nursie 4y ago

> I invite you to sell it short The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. Shorting for any decent stretch of time is not free, and you more or less have to do it on one of the many rigged casinos operating in the crypto space. It's a fool's game.

jimmydorry 4y ago
Banks and large investment firms are more than happy to create exotic instruments. With enough money at stake, you can definitely find an institution willing to take the other side of a bet against crypto (specifically BTC or ETH). If you want proof, refer to what happened in the lead-up to the 2008 Sub-Prime Mortgage crisis (or check out the movie The Big Short if you want somewhere to begin).
- MrMan 4y ago
  there are BTC futures on CME, but the margin requirements are high because CME knows BTC is garbage.