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Lenin copied his government from Ford Motor Company. He was a huge admirer of Henry Ford. A corporation is a command economy. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos differ f

by ncmncm 4y ago

Lenin copied his government from Ford Motor Company. He was a huge admirer of Henry Ford. A corporation is a command economy. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos differ from Lenin and Mao mainly in firing people instead of executing them.

epistasis 4y ago
Marx viewed capitalism as an essential step towards communism, and that we needed the abundance that capitalism provided in order to transition to the next stage. The biggest refutation of historial materialism is that it was Russia and China, nearly feudal societies, that tried to adopt his ideas and skip the capitalist stage, or at least have the capitalist stage be managed by committed Marxists that would shepherd the transformation. Of course the USSR faltered, and China has adopted more and more capitalism as of late, and it's hard to classify as Marxist other than it is authoritarian and oppressive, a natural consequence of any society build on Marxist ideals. And perhaps all these capitalist societies in the West will eventually become what Marx envisioned, once there is adequate abundance, but I personally doubt it heavily. Marx's conception of the labor theory of value, in addition to historical Materialism, are pretty well shot down as terrible theory, IMHO. And I say that as someone who aspires to a socialist society. Marx had some good ideas and some really terrible ones, but I think Marxists of today are some of the biggest obstacles towards advancing to more socialism, just as much an obstacle as Libertarians or all stripes of conservatives. I would also note that opposition to Marx has been a consistent thread throughout socialist history, so I'm not alone on this.
WalterBright 4y ago
A corporation does not apply force. Socialism requires force.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Overwhelmingly the most coercion applied in the world in any moment is economic. Corporations are created specifically to apply that.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    And police. If I want to live in my own, outside of current society, I still need land. Yet the system for allocating land allows individuals to own and control far more than they need personally, which means that there's little chance for me to get a chunk unless I enter fully into exchange with society and garner enough social power (money) to buy my own land.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    What has Bill Gates forced you to do?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      I was never employed at Microsoft.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        So Bill Gates never forced you to work at Microsoft? Did he force anyone to work there? Did he forcibly prevent any employee from quitting? Did he chop anyone's foot off who tried to run away? Did he ever threaten anyone's family to garner compliance?
        ncmncm 4y ago
        I know I do not really need to explain economic coercion to you. Disingenuous absurdities are out of place here.
- epistasis 4y ago
  Marxist socialism may require force, but most others define socialism as having democratic or anarchic systems of control. All societies force their members to do something to be part of them, and some societies do not allow people to leave, even if they disagree with core parts of that social contract. I disagree with large chunks of the US social contract, but find it a good balance overall. Yet I am still forced to take part in many systems that I would rather not take part in.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    You're free to leave the US. The border fence is to keep people out, not in.
    - epistasis 4y ago
      Leave the US for where? Who will let me in and under what societal forces? It's inescapable. And even if I were to find my spot, generate massive wealth, and I'm outside any society forcing me to do anything, I will now find that other societies I'm not part of, that have lots of weapons, might want to come and take whatever wealth I have generated, by force. And who will stop them unless I use force back? If you don't feel that society in the US forces you to beg Ave in certain ways, then either you have somehow licked intro eh one society that perfectly matches your views on every single matter, or you are not aware of how our society is forcing you to do things that you would rather now do.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        There are many expatriates from the US living abroad. My previous neighbor decided to leave the US and became a citizen of Canada. Nobody tried to stop him.
- pjc50 4y ago
  https://www.britannica.com/event/Homestead-Strike https://www.britannica.com/event/Homestead-Strike Even the libertarians will acknowledge that the rights of money and property are protected by force.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Yes, the role of government in a free market is to prevent the use of force or fraud. Note that this does not involve forcing anyone to do anything. It just says what people cannot do.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      And attacking them with truncheons and rubber bullets if they do anyway?
- nicoburns 4y ago
  A market of any kind also requires force. Otherwise anyone can simply take your goods without paying for them.

by ncmncm 4y ago

epistasis 4y ago

Marx viewed capitalism as an essential step towards communism, and that we needed the abundance that capitalism provided in order to transition to the next stage. The biggest refutation of historial materialism is that it was Russia and China, nearly feudal societies, that tried to adopt his ideas and skip the capitalist stage, or at least have the capitalist stage be managed by committed Marxists that would shepherd the transformation. Of course the USSR faltered, and China has adopted more and more capitalism as of late, and it's hard to classify as Marxist other than it is authoritarian and oppressive, a natural consequence of any society build on Marxist ideals. And perhaps all these capitalist societies in the West will eventually become what Marx envisioned, once there is adequate abundance, but I personally doubt it heavily. Marx's conception of the labor theory of value, in addition to historical Materialism, are pretty well shot down as terrible theory, IMHO. And I say that as someone who aspires to a socialist society. Marx had some good ideas and some really terrible ones, but I think Marxists of today are some of the biggest obstacles towards advancing to more socialism, just as much an obstacle as Libertarians or all stripes of conservatives. I would also note that opposition to Marx has been a consistent thread throughout socialist history, so I'm not alone on this.

WalterBright 4y ago

A corporation does not apply force. Socialism requires force.

ncmncm 4y ago
Overwhelmingly the most coercion applied in the world in any moment is economic. Corporations are created specifically to apply that.
- epistasis 4y ago
  And police. If I want to live in my own, outside of current society, I still need land. Yet the system for allocating land allows individuals to own and control far more than they need personally, which means that there's little chance for me to get a chunk unless I enter fully into exchange with society and garner enough social power (money) to buy my own land.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  What has Bill Gates forced you to do?
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    I was never employed at Microsoft.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      So Bill Gates never forced you to work at Microsoft? Did he force anyone to work there? Did he forcibly prevent any employee from quitting? Did he chop anyone's foot off who tried to run away? Did he ever threaten anyone's family to garner compliance?
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        I know I do not really need to explain economic coercion to you. Disingenuous absurdities are out of place here.
epistasis 4y ago
Marxist socialism may require force, but most others define socialism as having democratic or anarchic systems of control. All societies force their members to do something to be part of them, and some societies do not allow people to leave, even if they disagree with core parts of that social contract. I disagree with large chunks of the US social contract, but find it a good balance overall. Yet I am still forced to take part in many systems that I would rather not take part in.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  You're free to leave the US. The border fence is to keep people out, not in.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    Leave the US for where? Who will let me in and under what societal forces? It's inescapable. And even if I were to find my spot, generate massive wealth, and I'm outside any society forcing me to do anything, I will now find that other societies I'm not part of, that have lots of weapons, might want to come and take whatever wealth I have generated, by force. And who will stop them unless I use force back? If you don't feel that society in the US forces you to beg Ave in certain ways, then either you have somehow licked intro eh one society that perfectly matches your views on every single matter, or you are not aware of how our society is forcing you to do things that you would rather now do.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      There are many expatriates from the US living abroad. My previous neighbor decided to leave the US and became a citizen of Canada. Nobody tried to stop him.
pjc50 4y ago
https://www.britannica.com/event/Homestead-Strike https://www.britannica.com/event/Homestead-Strike Even the libertarians will acknowledge that the rights of money and property are protected by force.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Yes, the role of government in a free market is to prevent the use of force or fraud. Note that this does not involve forcing anyone to do anything. It just says what people cannot do.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    And attacking them with truncheons and rubber bullets if they do anyway?
nicoburns 4y ago
A market of any kind also requires force. Otherwise anyone can simply take your goods without paying for them.