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I would say decision making in general. Don't forget that all those optimization methods developed by Soviet mathematicians found great adoption by corporate p

I would say decision making in general. Don't forget that all those optimization methods developed by Soviet mathematicians found great adoption by corporate planners in capitalist societies! The book Red Plenty is a great book about both these ideas and the history of the USSR. I can't recommend it enough for technical folks, it's a book that made me interested in economics like never before. With companies like Amazon taking over large sections of retail consumption and allocation in our economy, the ideas are extremely relevant today. What could Amazon do with a massive AI that the USSR could not do? Definitely more, but they probably can not solve the computation problem of an entire economy.

ncmncm 4y ago
Lenin copied his government from Ford Motor Company. He was a huge admirer of Henry Ford. A corporation is a command economy. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos differ from Lenin and Mao mainly in firing people instead of executing them.
- epistasis 4y ago
  Marx viewed capitalism as an essential step towards communism, and that we needed the abundance that capitalism provided in order to transition to the next stage. The biggest refutation of historial materialism is that it was Russia and China, nearly feudal societies, that tried to adopt his ideas and skip the capitalist stage, or at least have the capitalist stage be managed by committed Marxists that would shepherd the transformation. Of course the USSR faltered, and China has adopted more and more capitalism as of late, and it's hard to classify as Marxist other than it is authoritarian and oppressive, a natural consequence of any society build on Marxist ideals. And perhaps all these capitalist societies in the West will eventually become what Marx envisioned, once there is adequate abundance, but I personally doubt it heavily. Marx's conception of the labor theory of value, in addition to historical Materialism, are pretty well shot down as terrible theory, IMHO. And I say that as someone who aspires to a socialist society. Marx had some good ideas and some really terrible ones, but I think Marxists of today are some of the biggest obstacles towards advancing to more socialism, just as much an obstacle as Libertarians or all stripes of conservatives. I would also note that opposition to Marx has been a consistent thread throughout socialist history, so I'm not alone on this.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  A corporation does not apply force. Socialism requires force.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Overwhelmingly the most coercion applied in the world in any moment is economic. Corporations are created specifically to apply that.
    - epistasis 4y ago
      And police. If I want to live in my own, outside of current society, I still need land. Yet the system for allocating land allows individuals to own and control far more than they need personally, which means that there's little chance for me to get a chunk unless I enter fully into exchange with society and garner enough social power (money) to buy my own land.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      What has Bill Gates forced you to do?
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        I was never employed at Microsoft.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        So Bill Gates never forced you to work at Microsoft? Did he force anyone to work there? Did he forcibly prevent any employee from quitting? Did he chop anyone's foot off who tried to run away? Did he ever threaten anyone's family to garner compliance?
        ncmncm 4y ago
        I know I do not really need to explain economic coercion to you. Disingenuous absurdities are out of place here.
Edman274 4y ago
For anyone else seeing this comment, I recommend the following blog post: http://bactra.org/weblog/918.html http://bactra.org/weblog/918.html "Attention conservation notice: Over 7800 words about optimal planning for a socialist economy and its intersection with computational complexity theory. This is about as relevant to the world around us as debating whether a devotee of the Olympian gods should approve of transgenic organisms. (Or: centaurs, yes or no?) Contains mathematical symbols but no actual math, and uses Red Plenty mostly as a launching point for a tangent." I made it about a quarter of the way through before I had to return my copy to the library - not because it wasn't well written, but my attention span has been shot by the internet and smart phones.

ncmncm 4y ago

Lenin copied his government from Ford Motor Company. He was a huge admirer of Henry Ford. A corporation is a command economy. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos differ from Lenin and Mao mainly in firing people instead of executing them.

epistasis 4y ago
Marx viewed capitalism as an essential step towards communism, and that we needed the abundance that capitalism provided in order to transition to the next stage. The biggest refutation of historial materialism is that it was Russia and China, nearly feudal societies, that tried to adopt his ideas and skip the capitalist stage, or at least have the capitalist stage be managed by committed Marxists that would shepherd the transformation. Of course the USSR faltered, and China has adopted more and more capitalism as of late, and it's hard to classify as Marxist other than it is authoritarian and oppressive, a natural consequence of any society build on Marxist ideals. And perhaps all these capitalist societies in the West will eventually become what Marx envisioned, once there is adequate abundance, but I personally doubt it heavily. Marx's conception of the labor theory of value, in addition to historical Materialism, are pretty well shot down as terrible theory, IMHO. And I say that as someone who aspires to a socialist society. Marx had some good ideas and some really terrible ones, but I think Marxists of today are some of the biggest obstacles towards advancing to more socialism, just as much an obstacle as Libertarians or all stripes of conservatives. I would also note that opposition to Marx has been a consistent thread throughout socialist history, so I'm not alone on this.
WalterBright 4y ago
A corporation does not apply force. Socialism requires force.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Overwhelmingly the most coercion applied in the world in any moment is economic. Corporations are created specifically to apply that.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    And police. If I want to live in my own, outside of current society, I still need land. Yet the system for allocating land allows individuals to own and control far more than they need personally, which means that there's little chance for me to get a chunk unless I enter fully into exchange with society and garner enough social power (money) to buy my own land.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    What has Bill Gates forced you to do?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      I was never employed at Microsoft.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        So Bill Gates never forced you to work at Microsoft? Did he force anyone to work there? Did he forcibly prevent any employee from quitting? Did he chop anyone's foot off who tried to run away? Did he ever threaten anyone's family to garner compliance?
        ncmncm 4y ago
        I know I do not really need to explain economic coercion to you. Disingenuous absurdities are out of place here.

Edman274 4y ago

For anyone else seeing this comment, I recommend the following blog post: http://bactra.org/weblog/918.html http://bactra.org/weblog/918.html "Attention conservation notice: Over 7800 words about optimal planning for a socialist economy and its intersection with computational complexity theory. This is about as relevant to the world around us as debating whether a devotee of the Olympian gods should approve of transgenic organisms. (Or: centaurs, yes or no?) Contains mathematical symbols but no actual math, and uses Red Plenty mostly as a launching point for a tangent." I made it about a quarter of the way through before I had to return my copy to the library - not because it wasn't well written, but my attention span has been shot by the internet and smart phones.