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“We” the engineers (working for the government) still have to develop those APIs and the backends that power them. The only way to reduce the pain instead of j

“We” the engineers (working for the government) still have to develop those APIs and the backends that power them. The only way to reduce the pain instead of just shifting it around would be to massively simplify the source of truth - tax codes and laws.

bfdm 4y ago
Yes, I think that's the point.
- mangoTangoBango 4y ago
  That is the point of the tax code, to be able to use it for political wielding of power e.g. the Chicken tax because LBJ was pissed at Europe that caused a 25% tariff on light trucks imported to the U.S. based on a retaliation for European tariffs on American chicken..
throwaway6532 4y ago
The US tax system is the legislative equivalent of spaghetti code / big ball of mud.
- loloquwowndueo 4y ago
  Nah it’s not a US thing; tax codes are the same most everywhere.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    I have never seen one quite as byzantine as the USA.
    - gabrielhidasy 4y ago
      Come to Brazil, we have taxes on products 'circulating', moving your products between logistic centers is OK, but if the product is lost or stolen, taxes are due (as if it was a sale). Some tax regulations were considered illegal by higher authorities, but that won't stop a tax auditor in a local level charging them and potentially closing down your business.
  - girvo 4y ago
    Some are worse than others mind you, at least for certain consumer facing things that most are discussing here.
  - jacobr1 4y ago
    It is a combinatorial explosion problem. Each taxing authority probably isn't too different from the norm, but in the US you are more likely to encounter many different taxing authorities that overlap.
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  Every tax system is. Because the experts who help to develop it are the same people who get paid to help you file your taxes. Making it easier would lose them income.
conductr 4y ago
True. One is a more realistic reality though. And it results in this thing only being built once instead of a massive headache for all. I have to imagine government workers are already writing software to identify if we’ve all implemented it correctly, when the could have just given us the code/api up front.
- jacobr1 4y ago
  > I have to imagine government workers are already writing software to identify if we’ve all implemented it correctly Because of the jurisdiction issue, even if each local (and for each location all relevant governmental tax authorities) had a clear API, interacting with them all, and dealing with the interactions between them recursively, is itself a large problem. And from what I've seen from smaller jurisdictions, the automation software is all about simplifying a human-in-loop workflow rather than full machine-driven rules.
  - conductr 4y ago
    Since we're talking about a hypothetical solution, in theory this would have a spec and potentially even be further centralized. I could imagine a world where the IRS ran the tax software for every taxing entity in the US. Each jurisdiction would have to configure their specs or potentially even codify the business logic. International would likely be tricky but it's similar to what is being done with ACH and other banking systems that are slowing moving to international. So, it's not impossible there's just not much of a push for it.
kubanczyk 4y ago
> reduce the pain instead of just shifting it around Nay. Shifting pain from thousands of projects to a single org obviously reduces overall impact.
fuklief 4y ago
You might be interested in [Catala](https://catala-lang.org/en/ https://catala-lang.org/en/), a domain specific language for implementing legislative texts. Iirc, they have worked on the french tax code, and are starting on the us one now.
- vonunov 4y ago
  Gee, that's bold, I feel like "try writing in plain English" is already asking a lot of the legal profession (fortunately some of them are taking care of asking it of themselves). I wouldn't want to push it!
  - btilly 4y ago
    Here is an irony. If most contracts were rewritten in plain Spanish, they would be understood by a higher portion of the general US public than the current legalese! If you believe the statistics on literacy and multi-lingualism, it's a tossup as to whether Chinese or legalese is more widely understood.
rocqua 4y ago
True, but if the lawmakers writing the tax code bear more of the pain of the complexity of the tax-code (i.e. get complaints and warnings of their own devs that have to implement that API) then they might write better tax codes.

bfdm 4y ago

Yes, I think that's the point.

mangoTangoBango 4y ago
That is the point of the tax code, to be able to use it for political wielding of power e.g. the Chicken tax because LBJ was pissed at Europe that caused a 25% tariff on light trucks imported to the U.S. based on a retaliation for European tariffs on American chicken..

throwaway6532 4y ago

The US tax system is the legislative equivalent of spaghetti code / big ball of mud.

loloquwowndueo 4y ago
Nah it’s not a US thing; tax codes are the same most everywhere.
- danielheath 4y ago
  I have never seen one quite as byzantine as the USA.
  - gabrielhidasy 4y ago
    Come to Brazil, we have taxes on products 'circulating', moving your products between logistic centers is OK, but if the product is lost or stolen, taxes are due (as if it was a sale). Some tax regulations were considered illegal by higher authorities, but that won't stop a tax auditor in a local level charging them and potentially closing down your business.
- girvo 4y ago
  Some are worse than others mind you, at least for certain consumer facing things that most are discussing here.
- jacobr1 4y ago
  It is a combinatorial explosion problem. Each taxing authority probably isn't too different from the norm, but in the US you are more likely to encounter many different taxing authorities that overlap.
coffeeblack 4y ago
Every tax system is. Because the experts who help to develop it are the same people who get paid to help you file your taxes. Making it easier would lose them income.

conductr 4y ago

True. One is a more realistic reality though. And it results in this thing only being built once instead of a massive headache for all. I have to imagine government workers are already writing software to identify if we’ve all implemented it correctly, when the could have just given us the code/api up front.

jacobr1 4y ago
> I have to imagine government workers are already writing software to identify if we’ve all implemented it correctly Because of the jurisdiction issue, even if each local (and for each location all relevant governmental tax authorities) had a clear API, interacting with them all, and dealing with the interactions between them recursively, is itself a large problem. And from what I've seen from smaller jurisdictions, the automation software is all about simplifying a human-in-loop workflow rather than full machine-driven rules.
- conductr 4y ago
  Since we're talking about a hypothetical solution, in theory this would have a spec and potentially even be further centralized. I could imagine a world where the IRS ran the tax software for every taxing entity in the US. Each jurisdiction would have to configure their specs or potentially even codify the business logic. International would likely be tricky but it's similar to what is being done with ACH and other banking systems that are slowing moving to international. So, it's not impossible there's just not much of a push for it.

kubanczyk 4y ago

> reduce the pain instead of just shifting it around Nay. Shifting pain from thousands of projects to a single org obviously reduces overall impact.

fuklief 4y ago

You might be interested in [Catala](https://catala-lang.org/en/ https://catala-lang.org/en/), a domain specific language for implementing legislative texts. Iirc, they have worked on the french tax code, and are starting on the us one now.

vonunov 4y ago
Gee, that's bold, I feel like "try writing in plain English" is already asking a lot of the legal profession (fortunately some of them are taking care of asking it of themselves). I wouldn't want to push it!
- btilly 4y ago
  Here is an irony. If most contracts were rewritten in plain Spanish, they would be understood by a higher portion of the general US public than the current legalese! If you believe the statistics on literacy and multi-lingualism, it's a tossup as to whether Chinese or legalese is more widely understood.

rocqua 4y ago

True, but if the lawmakers writing the tax code bear more of the pain of the complexity of the tax-code (i.e. get complaints and warnings of their own devs that have to implement that API) then they might write better tax codes.