4 ms·

Hey cm2012, I'm one of the cofounders of Lago (my business partner wrote this post). Actually even if you're incorporated in the US, if you serve a client in E

Hey cm2012, I'm one of the cofounders of Lago (my business partner wrote this post). Actually even if you're incorporated in the US, if you serve a client in EU for instance, the VAT rules of EU apply to how you're supposed to invoice your customer, beyond a certain transaction limit. So... unless you're based in the US, and only serving US-based users, it gets complex very fast!

notch656a 4y ago
If you wire your dollars onto US soil, for a service performed in the US by US business, good luck getting the US legal system to enforce upon that US business whatever euro-cucked invoicing scheme is called for.
- pimterry 4y ago
  This doesn't matter. For B2B, if you don't show your EU customers a valid invoice, they simply cannot pay you. It's not EU governments or post-purchase issues you have to deal, most of the time - it's trying to persuade a large accounting department to pay you unaccountable money. If you can't follow their invoicing requirements, it's just not going to happen.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    >they simply cannot pay you. Do people ever stop and wonder WHY in nations like Portugal the informal economy is roughly DOUBLE of say the US? When every invoice must be available to the government, what actually ends up happening is non-conforming invoices either get made up by the customer or the money magically flows out under some other auspice. Making it literally illegal to accept an invoice that is legal in the country in which you obtained it borders on logic even my toddler can understand is absolutely begging for bad business climate or tax evasion.
    - sbierwagen 4y ago
      Feature, not a bug. If there's pervasive lawbreaking, then the officials can collect more bribes.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
      European bureaucracy is out of control, and that's just the west. In the east and former Soviet states, it beggars belief.
    - AnhTho_FR 4y ago
      I'm Anh-Tho, one of a co-founders of Lago. I'm French, and I confirm, in B2B, no invoice (that is compliant, not a mere receipt) -> no payment.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Thank you Anh-Tho for your response. What is the mechanism for French government to subpoena a non-EU business to find this invoice? If the customer (instead of vendor) produced an invoice that matched their bank statements and non-conforming receipt, hypothetically, would anyone really know the difference?
        AnhTho_FR 4y ago
        Hey notch656a! I'm not a government expert, but the challenges would start with: - I am Frenchy (a French co) - Buying software from Ricky (a US co) If I don't have a proper invoice from Ricky to give to my accountant at the end of the year, and I get a tax control, then, I'll be fined. If the tax ministry notices large amounts of similar fines, they might look at Ricky. So the risk is more on Frenchy (risk to be fined). But I'd say that Ricky is safe for a while, unless the invoiced amount are really huge.
        PeterisP 4y ago
        Probably they wouldn't as full audits aren't that common, but audits do happen and most accountants won't care about your purchase as much to personally commit a felony and forge documents for no good reason (accountants do have personal responsibility, and every accounting course reminds wannabe accountants that "the boss ordered it" is not an excuse) so they simply say that they can't/won't do it and if the vendor can't send a satisfactory invoice then they won't do business with that vendor.
        notch656a 4y ago
        How would a French audit uncover anything wrong with a conforming format invoice under the name of some random American company that exactly matched the bank statement, physical goods, and customs paperwork?
    - wewxjfq 4y ago
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >Do people ever stop and wonder WHY the US is the biggest tax haven on earth? I consider this an advantage of the US, not disadvantage.
      - jaywalk 4y ago
        > it's against your freedumbs You don't even know what freedom is or how fundamental an issue it is to the United States.
        hoseja 4y ago
        I don't think US has many relevant freedoms left. Some people cling very hard to legacy 18th century ones while the Moloch just gobbles up all the new ones stemming from progress.
        jaywalk 4y ago
        We do in theory at least. But in practice... you're right.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  That american exceptionalism approach will work with private citizen customers. With business customers, leaning back in the legal framework encouraging tax fraud will not fly. They just won't buy from you then. That's why any US company wanting to do business in Europe either has an European subsidiary, or follows something that's compatible with EU invoicing schemes.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    >. With business customers, leaning back in the legal framework encouraging tax fraud will not fly. Yes which is why in nations like Portugal, where any business invoice may be subject to accountability to government, there totally isn't a massive informal (read: tax-evading) economy to deal with the fact that the government makes it literally impossible (at least in above words) to accept an invoice legal in the jurisdiction in which it was issued.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      You keep bringing this up and it's simply not true. The EU has a single set of VAT invoice requirements that applies across the EU (the MOSS invoicing standard). Any VAT invoice that satisfies these rules is legal in all EU countries (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32..., article 226). My company does plenty of business with EU businesses and we use a single standard EU VAT invoice without issue.
    - orf 4y ago
      There isn’t a massive tax evasion economy in the USA?
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Yes. It would be even larger if US companies couldn't accept foreign invoices without being in a special format. Does tax evasion in the US somehow disprove tax evasion in Europe?
    - 4y ago
yupper32 4y ago
That's their point, they said "do business in the US". You're saying the same thing.

notch656a 4y ago

If you wire your dollars onto US soil, for a service performed in the US by US business, good luck getting the US legal system to enforce upon that US business whatever euro-cucked invoicing scheme is called for.

pimterry 4y ago
This doesn't matter. For B2B, if you don't show your EU customers a valid invoice, they simply cannot pay you. It's not EU governments or post-purchase issues you have to deal, most of the time - it's trying to persuade a large accounting department to pay you unaccountable money. If you can't follow their invoicing requirements, it's just not going to happen.
- notch656a 4y ago
  >they simply cannot pay you. Do people ever stop and wonder WHY in nations like Portugal the informal economy is roughly DOUBLE of say the US? When every invoice must be available to the government, what actually ends up happening is non-conforming invoices either get made up by the customer or the money magically flows out under some other auspice. Making it literally illegal to accept an invoice that is legal in the country in which you obtained it borders on logic even my toddler can understand is absolutely begging for bad business climate or tax evasion.
  - sbierwagen 4y ago
    Feature, not a bug. If there's pervasive lawbreaking, then the officials can collect more bribes.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    European bureaucracy is out of control, and that's just the west. In the east and former Soviet states, it beggars belief.
  - AnhTho_FR 4y ago
    I'm Anh-Tho, one of a co-founders of Lago. I'm French, and I confirm, in B2B, no invoice (that is compliant, not a mere receipt) -> no payment.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Thank you Anh-Tho for your response. What is the mechanism for French government to subpoena a non-EU business to find this invoice? If the customer (instead of vendor) produced an invoice that matched their bank statements and non-conforming receipt, hypothetically, would anyone really know the difference?
      - AnhTho_FR 4y ago
        Hey notch656a! I'm not a government expert, but the challenges would start with: - I am Frenchy (a French co) - Buying software from Ricky (a US co) If I don't have a proper invoice from Ricky to give to my accountant at the end of the year, and I get a tax control, then, I'll be fined. If the tax ministry notices large amounts of similar fines, they might look at Ricky. So the risk is more on Frenchy (risk to be fined). But I'd say that Ricky is safe for a while, unless the invoiced amount are really huge.
      - PeterisP 4y ago
        Probably they wouldn't as full audits aren't that common, but audits do happen and most accountants won't care about your purchase as much to personally commit a felony and forge documents for no good reason (accountants do have personal responsibility, and every accounting course reminds wannabe accountants that "the boss ordered it" is not an excuse) so they simply say that they can't/won't do it and if the vendor can't send a satisfactory invoice then they won't do business with that vendor.
        notch656a 4y ago
        How would a French audit uncover anything wrong with a conforming format invoice under the name of some random American company that exactly matched the bank statement, physical goods, and customs paperwork?
  - wewxjfq 4y ago
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >Do people ever stop and wonder WHY the US is the biggest tax haven on earth? I consider this an advantage of the US, not disadvantage.
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      > it's against your freedumbs You don't even know what freedom is or how fundamental an issue it is to the United States.
      - hoseja 4y ago
        I don't think US has many relevant freedoms left. Some people cling very hard to legacy 18th century ones while the Moloch just gobbles up all the new ones stemming from progress.
        jaywalk 4y ago
        We do in theory at least. But in practice... you're right.
DocTomoe 4y ago
That american exceptionalism approach will work with private citizen customers. With business customers, leaning back in the legal framework encouraging tax fraud will not fly. They just won't buy from you then. That's why any US company wanting to do business in Europe either has an European subsidiary, or follows something that's compatible with EU invoicing schemes.
- notch656a 4y ago
  >. With business customers, leaning back in the legal framework encouraging tax fraud will not fly. Yes which is why in nations like Portugal, where any business invoice may be subject to accountability to government, there totally isn't a massive informal (read: tax-evading) economy to deal with the fact that the government makes it literally impossible (at least in above words) to accept an invoice legal in the jurisdiction in which it was issued.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    You keep bringing this up and it's simply not true. The EU has a single set of VAT invoice requirements that applies across the EU (the MOSS invoicing standard). Any VAT invoice that satisfies these rules is legal in all EU countries (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32..., article 226). My company does plenty of business with EU businesses and we use a single standard EU VAT invoice without issue.
  - orf 4y ago
    There isn’t a massive tax evasion economy in the USA?
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Yes. It would be even larger if US companies couldn't accept foreign invoices without being in a special format. Does tax evasion in the US somehow disprove tax evasion in Europe?
  - 4y ago

yupper32 4y ago

That's their point, they said "do business in the US". You're saying the same thing.