7 ms·

A hacker's loneliness

70 points by maryrosecook 18y ago

"The computer is more interesting than most people. I love to spend time with my computer. It is fun to write programs for it, play games on it, and to build new parts for it. It is fascinating to try to figure out what part of the program it is in by the way the lights flicker or the radio buzzes. "...The computer has moved out of the den and into the rest of your life. It will consume all of your spare time, and even your vacation, if you let it. It will empty your wallet and tie up your thoughts. It will drive away your family. Your friends will start to think of you as a bore. And what for?" Shaken by the break-up of his marriage, Tom Pittman decided to change his habits. And he did. He later described the transformation: "I take a day of rest now. I won't turn on the computer on Sunday. "The other six days, I work like a dog." - Hackers, Steven Levy.

maryrosecook 18y ago
I wasn't sure if this is appropriate. However, it expresses the loneliness that I, and, I expect, some other hackers, sometimes feel.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
  - krschultz 18y ago
    Or you can spend time doing what you want with people who also like doing that, and be truly happy. I live with 3 other hackers and love it.
markbao 18y ago
The problem I have is that not only I both love to spend time with it, but that I know that I should be spending time with it to get the product done faster. Sometimes it may be fun, exciting, etc. but sometimes it's just an obligation.
kajecounterhack 18y ago
It hasn't driven away my family, but it does drive away friends. Lol.
- PieSquared 18y ago
  It did that to me for a while, too; I would always want to explain to them my latest idea or tell them about some awesome new language or something. They would yawn. They're still awesome people, but sometimes I wish there were people around me who I could associate with and discuss computer hobbies with. (Sadly, being in school doesn't give you many opportunities to meet new people very often, it seems to me...)
  - kolya3 18y ago
    School is THE place to meet new people. In fact, enjoy the variety of people you meet at school now. It's harder to meet interesting people later on, after you are out of school. Most people are content with discussing what they saw on TV last night and what their lunch companion has on their plate. "Is that pesto?" Enjoy your school years :)
    - bbb 18y ago
      Statements like the above always frustrate me. I'm in school (and have been for a long time). Many people that I respect told me: grad school was the best part in their lives, that I should enjoy my time, and that it only goes downhill afterwards (no more research, family obligations, boring jobs, administration work, etc.). Great. But what if I don't like my situation right now? What if I don't like grad school that much? What if I don't like most of the people around me? If the sentiment that grad school is the best part of life is correct, then what else is there to look forward to? What's the point? (sorry for being all gloomy, but the parent's post really struck a nerve)
      - arjungmenon 18y ago
        Totally agree. Coincidentally, I'm in school and many people have told me the same thing. To be honest, I don't "enjoy" anything about it. This only makes me wonder if college is supposed to be the "best part of your life", (and its quite the opposite for me); then the the rest of my life should be pretty darn depressing.
      - 18y ago
endlessvoid94 18y ago
That was a great book. Also check out "Crypto" by Steven Levy.
- silentbicycle 18y ago
  _The Code Book_ by Simon Singh (http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html) is quite a bit better, IMHO.
menloparkbum 18y ago
"Is this indifference to the world a consequence of too much intercourse with machines that give the appearance of thinking? How were he to fare if one day he has to quit computers and rejoin a civilized society?... The more he has to do with computing, the more it seems to him like chess: a tight little world defined by made-up rules, one that sucks in boys of a certain susceptible temperament and then turns them half-crazy, as he is half-crazy, so that all the time they deludedly think they are playing the game, the game is in fact playing them." -J.M. Coetzee, winner of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Literature and former IBM programmer, from "Youth, Scenes from Provincial Life II."
- arjungmenon 18y ago
  It makes me regret when I recall how much of my life I've lost to programming. I spend most of my mid-teens (15,16,17) writing pointless C programs (interpreters, compilers, etc. for pathetic new languages that probably no one except me will use). While my classmates from high school went out dating girls, watching new movies, etc.; I would be sitting in front of my computer palms on forehead fixing hard to find C pointer bugs. The only person I could have a decent conversation with was my CS teacher. In the end it was only after coming to college I realized how much I had lost. I barely had any communication skills, absolutely zero sexual experience (haven't even walked holding hands with a female - even today) and the reputation of being a geek. And you know what? I realized I wasn't a happy person anymore. I think this kind of a life is seriously screwed. Very soon (been trying) I'm gonna totally quit "being geek" (programming for a hobby, etc.) and try to be normal like everyone else.
  - maximilian 18y ago
    Try to pick up some sports. Its generally a good way to meet people in a casual way. You get in shape as a plus.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - utx00 18y ago
    there are normal people who program for a hobbie ;) just be moderate.
mroman 18y ago
With time, I have felt that loneliness, yet, after a couple of hours of being around people, I can't help but think about the work I could be doing, the wonders I could be exploring.
- ynd 18y ago
  I feel the same. But I started to change my ways so I don't become too isolated.
  - mroman 18y ago
    I hear you. I have done the same for a couple of months at a time, and the interesting thing was that it happened spontaneously - it wasn't a conscious decision. I do think that isolation partly exists within a person's mind, as I have felt isolated when surrounded by a roomful of people. It's a part of our condition, a challenge that we must deal with successfully in order to hack on . . .
woid 18y ago
There is also problem with relationships with some women. I think, most women don't mind you are spending so much time with a computer (as long as you are making good money doing it). But they are jealous they must share the love and attention with something like a computer. That is something unbearable for them. In this case, you as a hacker have to lie that you hate your daily work, your boss is an asshole and you have to stay at work longer just to pay the bills. Don't even think to be honest for second and telling truth that you love your work, you escape there because you are resting by working, by being creative and by seeing your code/product running. If you have family, maybe is better to take well-paid but boring 8-5 job full of assholes, where you will look forward for the end and rushing home to wife and kids. Computer you may use just for reading news on Friday evening. Are you more a mad scientist or a family guy? :-)
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  This happens to many people who are very into their work, computers or not. I have 2 good friends who are both very successful artists, and they are both divorced because of their commitment to their work.
  - woid 18y ago
    My opinion is maybe biased by living in central Europe. But I see many people who are not satisfied with their work and realize their passions somewhere else (family, hobbies, you name it). I'm a little afraid here it is still social norm even 20 years after communism era. As far as I can observe women are more often these unsatisfied workers because they tend to have worse and less paid jobs and what more: they are naturally "hardwired" to be passionate about family in the first place. So they don't understand someone is going to work not for money, but for fun and his passion.
- iamelgringo 18y ago
  I think that it's less a matter of lying about how much you love work and making sure that your woman feels secure in your love. She has to know that she comes first. That is, if you want to keep the relationship.
vaksel 18y ago
I feel like the whole loneliness thing is mostly the person's fault. Instead of being your own man, you are trying to live up to someone else's expectations. Lets face it, as a startup founder you have a LOT more on your plate than some ex-highschool football quarterback who works at the Gap.
bufferout 18y ago
Moderation. If you let any one thing consume all of your time then you're missing out on all the beauty and diversity the world and life can offer. Feed your brain new experiences and it will reward you.
- truebosko 18y ago
  This is key. Apart from hacking away at the computer (I also do it for 8 hours a day at work), I cook daily dinners/breakfast as a hobby, I spend lots of time with my girlfriend (easier when you live together) and I try to generally disconnect from the computer for a few hours a day wether it be right after work or later at night Some nights I won't even go near the PC except to turn on a movie, and some nights I will come home and work all night on the computer. It varies As bufferout said, Moderation :)
fgimenez 18y ago
This is sad, I feel this way while doing a CS degree at Berkeley and working in front of a computer for UCSF in my spare time. Instead of just complaining and racking up karma, I propose we meet up at a bar in the city (San Francisco to you non-bay area residents). Who's with me to get drunk and tell nerdy jokes on Saturday night? I'm totally not kidding. If you need an excuse, call it networking. If you don't, call it partying. [Edit: I'm down for seedier mission bars, but anywhere is fine if there's enough interest.]
- iamelgringo 18y ago
  A group of us do this on a pretty regular basis at Hackers and Founders: http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1737/ http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1737/ We're getting together Next Wednesday.
  - fgimenez 18y ago
    Wow, that definitely sounds like something I'll be doing. Unfortunately, I've got 2 midterms on the Thursday afterwards, so I'll have to pass on this Wednesday. Thanks for the heads-up though. Hope to meet you there.
    - iamelgringo 18y ago
      We're getting together almost every other week, so if you can't make this week, we'll have another get together in another couple of weeks.
yters 18y ago
Would it be different if hackers had the prestige of, say, a celebrity? From what I understand, most super successful people work horribly long hours, but I suspect the feeling of fulfillment is also based on the social prestige of what they do. Computing is so ubiquitous (and also the cause of lots of frustration for some people) that those who drive the field don't get the recognition they deserve. Maybe the whole startup culture will change this, since the risk and self determination gives it more of a romantic flair. At any rate, quitting, or even moderation, may not truly solve things if a person has a very deep love for their work. I think this adds a morally noble element to being a hacker startup-founder: it helps the whole field realize their true sense of self worth.
- Hutzpah 18y ago
  also the prestige thing is a multi-dimensional thing. high-brow vs low-brow and things like that play into this.
  - yters 18y ago
    It's weird, high brow people have a stereotype of high brows and visa versa. I didn't think the terms were so literal.
herdrick 18y ago
I've been doing the "no computer for one day a week) plan for one week now. It's been great so far. (And I was inspired by that very paragraph of that excellent book).
hunter107 18y ago
Mostly I see that Hackers tend to be generally unsatisfied with the state of things around them, and will compulsively seek to improve or atleast _know_ the system. The lonely part arises from these traits I think which puts them at a somewhat alienated position in society, because of their intolerance towards incompetence or the irrationality of the world around them, which I believe puts them at a risk of withdrawal from society towards the rational and logical world of computers. As for moderation, I don't think hackers are quite known for it. Hackers are by definition among the extremes of the computing society, so moderation would be viewed more as a stepping down. No wonder most hackers tend to be INTPs.
pavelludiq 18y ago
I would say that its not computers that make us this way, its mostly because we are this way, that we love these machines. we are thinkers, makers, dreamers and loners. Yes, i have friends in the real world, yes, i have social skills, but its my obsessions, that give me a reason, its my quest for knowledge and wisdom that drives me, people are mostly a biological need, not exactly like food, or water. God dammit, its my last year of high school, i gotta find me a girlfriend, but thats probably bad for my "coding happy hours".
timmy2shoe9384 18y ago
Couldn't have put it better myself Steven Levy! The part about the consuming, Im here commenting to a comment that would never ammount to anything in the common society we know as human. Why do I waiste time? Apparently it consumes the part of life...::BLANK::.... O~~~~----______ ====~ (Fill) ('n) (Bla'k)
computerguy16 18y ago
Get this guy a 'Real Doll'
msluyter 18y ago
I sorta have the opposite problem. I'm quite introverted and enjoy programming for its own sake, but I have a difficult time making myself work on projects outside of work because it just feels too lonely.
omarish 18y ago
You guys realize that girls and loving your work are not mutually exclusive..

70 points by maryrosecook 18y ago

maryrosecook 18y ago

I wasn't sure if this is appropriate. However, it expresses the loneliness that I, and, I expect, some other hackers, sometimes feel.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
- krschultz 18y ago
  Or you can spend time doing what you want with people who also like doing that, and be truly happy. I live with 3 other hackers and love it.

markbao 18y ago

The problem I have is that not only I both love to spend time with it, but that I know that I should be spending time with it to get the product done faster. Sometimes it may be fun, exciting, etc. but sometimes it's just an obligation.

kajecounterhack 18y ago

It hasn't driven away my family, but it does drive away friends. Lol.

PieSquared 18y ago
It did that to me for a while, too; I would always want to explain to them my latest idea or tell them about some awesome new language or something. They would yawn. They're still awesome people, but sometimes I wish there were people around me who I could associate with and discuss computer hobbies with. (Sadly, being in school doesn't give you many opportunities to meet new people very often, it seems to me...)
- kolya3 18y ago
  School is THE place to meet new people. In fact, enjoy the variety of people you meet at school now. It's harder to meet interesting people later on, after you are out of school. Most people are content with discussing what they saw on TV last night and what their lunch companion has on their plate. "Is that pesto?" Enjoy your school years :)
  - bbb 18y ago
    Statements like the above always frustrate me. I'm in school (and have been for a long time). Many people that I respect told me: grad school was the best part in their lives, that I should enjoy my time, and that it only goes downhill afterwards (no more research, family obligations, boring jobs, administration work, etc.). Great. But what if I don't like my situation right now? What if I don't like grad school that much? What if I don't like most of the people around me? If the sentiment that grad school is the best part of life is correct, then what else is there to look forward to? What's the point? (sorry for being all gloomy, but the parent's post really struck a nerve)
    - arjungmenon 18y ago
      Totally agree. Coincidentally, I'm in school and many people have told me the same thing. To be honest, I don't "enjoy" anything about it. This only makes me wonder if college is supposed to be the "best part of your life", (and its quite the opposite for me); then the the rest of my life should be pretty darn depressing.
    - 18y ago

endlessvoid94 18y ago

That was a great book. Also check out "Crypto" by Steven Levy.

silentbicycle 18y ago
_The Code Book_ by Simon Singh (http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html) is quite a bit better, IMHO.

menloparkbum 18y ago

"Is this indifference to the world a consequence of too much intercourse with machines that give the appearance of thinking? How were he to fare if one day he has to quit computers and rejoin a civilized society?... The more he has to do with computing, the more it seems to him like chess: a tight little world defined by made-up rules, one that sucks in boys of a certain susceptible temperament and then turns them half-crazy, as he is half-crazy, so that all the time they deludedly think they are playing the game, the game is in fact playing them." -J.M. Coetzee, winner of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Literature and former IBM programmer, from "Youth, Scenes from Provincial Life II."

arjungmenon 18y ago
It makes me regret when I recall how much of my life I've lost to programming. I spend most of my mid-teens (15,16,17) writing pointless C programs (interpreters, compilers, etc. for pathetic new languages that probably no one except me will use). While my classmates from high school went out dating girls, watching new movies, etc.; I would be sitting in front of my computer palms on forehead fixing hard to find C pointer bugs. The only person I could have a decent conversation with was my CS teacher. In the end it was only after coming to college I realized how much I had lost. I barely had any communication skills, absolutely zero sexual experience (haven't even walked holding hands with a female - even today) and the reputation of being a geek. And you know what? I realized I wasn't a happy person anymore. I think this kind of a life is seriously screwed. Very soon (been trying) I'm gonna totally quit "being geek" (programming for a hobby, etc.) and try to be normal like everyone else.
- maximilian 18y ago
  Try to pick up some sports. Its generally a good way to meet people in a casual way. You get in shape as a plus.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- utx00 18y ago
  there are normal people who program for a hobbie ;) just be moderate.

mroman 18y ago

With time, I have felt that loneliness, yet, after a couple of hours of being around people, I can't help but think about the work I could be doing, the wonders I could be exploring.

ynd 18y ago
I feel the same. But I started to change my ways so I don't become too isolated.
- mroman 18y ago
  I hear you. I have done the same for a couple of months at a time, and the interesting thing was that it happened spontaneously - it wasn't a conscious decision. I do think that isolation partly exists within a person's mind, as I have felt isolated when surrounded by a roomful of people. It's a part of our condition, a challenge that we must deal with successfully in order to hack on . . .

woid 18y ago

There is also problem with relationships with some women. I think, most women don't mind you are spending so much time with a computer (as long as you are making good money doing it). But they are jealous they must share the love and attention with something like a computer. That is something unbearable for them. In this case, you as a hacker have to lie that you hate your daily work, your boss is an asshole and you have to stay at work longer just to pay the bills. Don't even think to be honest for second and telling truth that you love your work, you escape there because you are resting by working, by being creative and by seeing your code/product running. If you have family, maybe is better to take well-paid but boring 8-5 job full of assholes, where you will look forward for the end and rushing home to wife and kids. Computer you may use just for reading news on Friday evening. Are you more a mad scientist or a family guy? :-)

menloparkbum 18y ago
This happens to many people who are very into their work, computers or not. I have 2 good friends who are both very successful artists, and they are both divorced because of their commitment to their work.
- woid 18y ago
  My opinion is maybe biased by living in central Europe. But I see many people who are not satisfied with their work and realize their passions somewhere else (family, hobbies, you name it). I'm a little afraid here it is still social norm even 20 years after communism era. As far as I can observe women are more often these unsatisfied workers because they tend to have worse and less paid jobs and what more: they are naturally "hardwired" to be passionate about family in the first place. So they don't understand someone is going to work not for money, but for fun and his passion.
iamelgringo 18y ago
I think that it's less a matter of lying about how much you love work and making sure that your woman feels secure in your love. She has to know that she comes first. That is, if you want to keep the relationship.

vaksel 18y ago

I feel like the whole loneliness thing is mostly the person's fault. Instead of being your own man, you are trying to live up to someone else's expectations. Lets face it, as a startup founder you have a LOT more on your plate than some ex-highschool football quarterback who works at the Gap.

bufferout 18y ago

Moderation. If you let any one thing consume all of your time then you're missing out on all the beauty and diversity the world and life can offer. Feed your brain new experiences and it will reward you.

truebosko 18y ago
This is key. Apart from hacking away at the computer (I also do it for 8 hours a day at work), I cook daily dinners/breakfast as a hobby, I spend lots of time with my girlfriend (easier when you live together) and I try to generally disconnect from the computer for a few hours a day wether it be right after work or later at night Some nights I won't even go near the PC except to turn on a movie, and some nights I will come home and work all night on the computer. It varies As bufferout said, Moderation :)

fgimenez 18y ago

This is sad, I feel this way while doing a CS degree at Berkeley and working in front of a computer for UCSF in my spare time. Instead of just complaining and racking up karma, I propose we meet up at a bar in the city (San Francisco to you non-bay area residents). Who's with me to get drunk and tell nerdy jokes on Saturday night? I'm totally not kidding. If you need an excuse, call it networking. If you don't, call it partying. [Edit: I'm down for seedier mission bars, but anywhere is fine if there's enough interest.]

iamelgringo 18y ago
A group of us do this on a pretty regular basis at Hackers and Founders: http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1737/ http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1737/ We're getting together Next Wednesday.
- fgimenez 18y ago
  Wow, that definitely sounds like something I'll be doing. Unfortunately, I've got 2 midterms on the Thursday afterwards, so I'll have to pass on this Wednesday. Thanks for the heads-up though. Hope to meet you there.
  - iamelgringo 18y ago
    We're getting together almost every other week, so if you can't make this week, we'll have another get together in another couple of weeks.

yters 18y ago

Would it be different if hackers had the prestige of, say, a celebrity? From what I understand, most super successful people work horribly long hours, but I suspect the feeling of fulfillment is also based on the social prestige of what they do. Computing is so ubiquitous (and also the cause of lots of frustration for some people) that those who drive the field don't get the recognition they deserve. Maybe the whole startup culture will change this, since the risk and self determination gives it more of a romantic flair. At any rate, quitting, or even moderation, may not truly solve things if a person has a very deep love for their work. I think this adds a morally noble element to being a hacker startup-founder: it helps the whole field realize their true sense of self worth.

Hutzpah 18y ago
also the prestige thing is a multi-dimensional thing. high-brow vs low-brow and things like that play into this.
- yters 18y ago
  It's weird, high brow people have a stereotype of high brows and visa versa. I didn't think the terms were so literal.

herdrick 18y ago

I've been doing the "no computer for one day a week) plan for one week now. It's been great so far. (And I was inspired by that very paragraph of that excellent book).

hunter107 18y ago

Mostly I see that Hackers tend to be generally unsatisfied with the state of things around them, and will compulsively seek to improve or atleast _know_ the system. The lonely part arises from these traits I think which puts them at a somewhat alienated position in society, because of their intolerance towards incompetence or the irrationality of the world around them, which I believe puts them at a risk of withdrawal from society towards the rational and logical world of computers. As for moderation, I don't think hackers are quite known for it. Hackers are by definition among the extremes of the computing society, so moderation would be viewed more as a stepping down. No wonder most hackers tend to be INTPs.

pavelludiq 18y ago

I would say that its not computers that make us this way, its mostly because we are this way, that we love these machines. we are thinkers, makers, dreamers and loners. Yes, i have friends in the real world, yes, i have social skills, but its my obsessions, that give me a reason, its my quest for knowledge and wisdom that drives me, people are mostly a biological need, not exactly like food, or water. God dammit, its my last year of high school, i gotta find me a girlfriend, but thats probably bad for my "coding happy hours".

timmy2shoe9384 18y ago

Couldn't have put it better myself Steven Levy! The part about the consuming, Im here commenting to a comment that would never ammount to anything in the common society we know as human. Why do I waiste time? Apparently it consumes the part of life...::BLANK::.... O~~~~----______ ====~ (Fill) ('n) (Bla'k)

computerguy16 18y ago

Get this guy a 'Real Doll'

msluyter 18y ago

I sorta have the opposite problem. I'm quite introverted and enjoy programming for its own sake, but I have a difficult time making myself work on projects outside of work because it just feels too lonely.

omarish 18y ago

You guys realize that girls and loving your work are not mutually exclusive..