5 ms·

For whatever it’s worth as an adjacent topic. I went down the rabbit hole during covid and read a bunch of books on the troubles. Hands down one of the most in

by mhoad 4y ago

For whatever it’s worth as an adjacent topic. I went down the rabbit hole during covid and read a bunch of books on the troubles. Hands down one of the most interesting topics I’ve come across in years and was one of those times where I kind of assumed in the back of my mind I knew at least the rough outline of what it was about before but after all I could think was how badly I was wrong. It was also a really interesting read intellectually considering the backdrop of say the US in 2022 and how you have groups forming now who claim to say “violence is the only way forward” while also having this debate about “is it OK to protest out the front of somebody’s house”. The PIRA were a lot of things to be sure but they were notoriously calculating and rational behind most of their decisions in a way that is particularly unusual amongst insurgent groups. Just watching how that thought process started and evolved throughout the 30+ year war and how society changed around them is one of the most interesting stories I’ve come across in a while and one that’s continued today since the transition to peace and now that they actually have political power for the first time from the election the other week in a way they never had before. What you end up with after going through the story is this wild set of case studies that cover a whole range of topics that go from theoretical to applied real quickly like justice, political power, morality, propaganda, security and strategy. It’s not wrapped up into a particularly neat package with clear good and bad sides and by the end of it everyone is covered in shit and all anyone wants is to just live a normal life.

EdwardDiego 4y ago
It was kind of embodiment of Clausewitz's "war is a continuation of politics by other means". Or perhaps, "politics is a continuation of war by other means", which applies well to PIRA and Sinn Féin.
- mhoad 4y ago
  100% agreed it’s basically here’s what that looks like in real life in a modern context and in a society most of us could more or less relate to.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  But doesn’t this also mean “a conflict can be moved off the battle field and into the ballot box?” And isn’t that what happened in Ireland?
pjc50 4y ago
> considering the backdrop of say the US in 2022 Historically the US had some both pro-violence and anti-violence involvement in the Troubles. PIRA were openly fundraising with US politicians in Boston; the republican side was armed by the ubiquitous Armalite (and a large quantity of Semtex from Libya). US involvement was also critical in brokering the ceasefire. The present-day US has an odd combination of a lot of pro-violence rhetoric and a lot of weapons, but almost no organized violence, just a steady supply of stochastic terrorists shooting up grocery stores from time to time without a strategy. > transition to peace In many ways the Unionist side has coped worse with the transition to peace. Some groups haven't got past 1688. Can't "Ulster says no" to everything forever. The UK has never examined its own role in the violence and refuses to hold its murderers to account.
- noneeeed 4y ago
  The current UK government's resitance to dealing with it's part is (as a Brit) incredibly frustrating. Many of us want this dealt with properly, and to build better relationships but there is a strong resistance to any self-reflection about any of our past.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >The UK has never examined its own role in the violence and refuses to hold its murderers to account. Of course not. That would make it a lot harder to get people to murder for the benefit of the establishment in the future.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  We Americans prefer our violence to be chaotic. Organization violence is for suckers. :D To be clear, this is a joke.
sentinalien 4y ago
>they actually have political power for the first time from the election the other week in a way they never had before Worth pointing out the largest nationalist party and the largest unionist party are supposed to share power equally in the sectarian state and the only change here is symbolic. The unionist parties have insisted on the First Minister-Deputy First Minister distinction for years although it has now came back to bite them.
- mhoad 4y ago
  Agreed, I didn't get into it in the original comment because it's a pretty deep topic obviously but the idea of "having power" is an extremely shaky description at best. From an outside perspective it really seems like the DUP have painted themselves into an extremely weird corner with Brexit and their new demands that looks increasingly like it was a fatal strategic move for them from a political point of view. You already have the UVF claiming to no longer respect the GFA and it's all rather unclear where they go from here. Excellent podcast episode on the topic from a year ago before the election obviously here talking about the context leading up to all of this along with what dissident politics looks like since the end of the troubles https://podcastaddict.com/episode/120707318 https://podcastaddict.com/episode/120707318
  - sentinalien 4y ago
    Yes, it's difficult to understand the logic and lack of foresight behind many of the DUP's decisions over the last few years, particularly during the period they acted as kingmakers for the Tories in 2017-2019.
    - pjc50 4y ago
      A combination of traditional intransigence - saying no to everything has, after all, been their strategy for decades - and Brexit-related corruption: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/you-aren-t-allowed-to-know-who-paid-for-key-leave-campaign-adverts/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/y...
noneeeed 4y ago
Could you share some of the books you've read? I think I have a better knowledge of the history than the average English person, but I'm also very conscious that I've probably only scratched the surface on a very complex and tangled history. I've heard that said about the IRA by people from the UK intellegence/security services. There was a level of "trust" and predictability between enemies that made it possible to negotiate a peace and to have channels of communication between them which were essential in the early days of the peace process. I think it helped that there was a comprehensible end-goal for the IRA. This contrasts with the current rather nebulous aims of islamic and far-right terrorism in the UK, and their rather chaotic, ill-disceplined and isolated little groups.
- mhoad 4y ago
  Yeah of course! I break them out into a few different categories depending on what you're actually looking for. For a straight up history perspective that also goes pretty deep into the shadowy nature of it all I enjoyed The Dirty War by Martin Dillon. I also enjoyed one called The Morality of Terrorism which does a nice job of jumping between the theoretical and practical aspects about the "just war theory" and also looks at from a real politik point of view if it was worth it? The answer was unsurprisingly no and makes the argument that in many ways the PIRA ended up where they started or at least that the conditions of the GFA were similar to a potential ceasefire deal that was on the cards early on in the war. They had the tools they needed by that point to pursue their political goals without violence and that it was all ultimately a strategic mistake and everyone is worse off for it. Then there are a bunch of autobiographies from various points of view which capture a lot of that gritty on the ground detail and the behind the scenes thinking. == Insider: Gerry Bradley's Life in the IRA == This is the POV from a particularly senior operations guy in the IRA and has this interesting subcontext looking at how the popularity for the war changes over the years from this kind of "patriotic struggle" to just something extremely dark that people want nothing to do with and in the process he goes from a hero to villain figure in the eyes of many and his own disillusionment with it all. He had to go into hiding after writing this book and then killed himself shortly after presumably because of that level of disillusionment. == The Volunteer : A Former IRA Man's True Story == Interesting story about how this guy gets radicalised at a young age and goes on to be the most famous bomb maker during the war, his eventual capture and deradicalisation. More of a real foot solider level perspective with no real influence on the scenario around him. It's real "true believer" stuff to something entirely different by the end of it all. == Watching The Door: A Memoir 1971-1978 by Kevin Myers == This is the point of view of a local catholic journalist who was kind of the eyes and the ears on the ground for a lot of the world at the time. == MRF Shadow Troop by Simon Cursey == This story as told by one member of the secret and particularly controversial British intelligence units during the war. == Southside Provisional by Kieran Conway == The story as told by the PIRAs own head of intelligence and his experience going up against the British security services. Provides a interesting look at things from the leadership level inside the group. == Fifty Dead Men Walking, Martin McGartland == The story as told by a guy who starts in the IRA in a supporting role rather than an operational capacity and is eventually recruited to spy for for the British who had access to the inner circle of the PIRAs upper command (he was their driver) and how he was eventually discovered, and in a very dramatic turn of events was able to escape by jumping from a 3rd story window right before they were about to kill him. It's a good example I thought about my original comment where the concept of "good and bad" in the troubles just doesn't work well as a framing no matter how much we want it to. The entire thing was a massive shit show and this kind of helps to unwind some of those romantic notions people seem to have in the younger generations of that period. His story also went on to become a movie by the same name which if I recall correctly is on YouTube.
tragomaskhalos 4y ago
Pinker's 'Better Angels of our Nature' has an interesting take on how political violence always ends up self-defeating because it inevitably goes too far and alienates its constituency. It took a lot of political courage from all sides to resolve to move forward peacefully, but ultimately it was ordinary people's desire for that "normal life" that was the engine imo.

by mhoad 4y ago

EdwardDiego 4y ago

It was kind of embodiment of Clausewitz's "war is a continuation of politics by other means". Or perhaps, "politics is a continuation of war by other means", which applies well to PIRA and Sinn Féin.

mhoad 4y ago
100% agreed it’s basically here’s what that looks like in real life in a modern context and in a society most of us could more or less relate to.
pyuser583 4y ago
But doesn’t this also mean “a conflict can be moved off the battle field and into the ballot box?” And isn’t that what happened in Ireland?

pjc50 4y ago

> considering the backdrop of say the US in 2022 Historically the US had some both pro-violence and anti-violence involvement in the Troubles. PIRA were openly fundraising with US politicians in Boston; the republican side was armed by the ubiquitous Armalite (and a large quantity of Semtex from Libya). US involvement was also critical in brokering the ceasefire. The present-day US has an odd combination of a lot of pro-violence rhetoric and a lot of weapons, but almost no organized violence, just a steady supply of stochastic terrorists shooting up grocery stores from time to time without a strategy. > transition to peace In many ways the Unionist side has coped worse with the transition to peace. Some groups haven't got past 1688. Can't "Ulster says no" to everything forever. The UK has never examined its own role in the violence and refuses to hold its murderers to account.

noneeeed 4y ago
The current UK government's resitance to dealing with it's part is (as a Brit) incredibly frustrating. Many of us want this dealt with properly, and to build better relationships but there is a strong resistance to any self-reflection about any of our past.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>The UK has never examined its own role in the violence and refuses to hold its murderers to account. Of course not. That would make it a lot harder to get people to murder for the benefit of the establishment in the future.
pyuser583 4y ago
We Americans prefer our violence to be chaotic. Organization violence is for suckers. :D To be clear, this is a joke.

sentinalien 4y ago

>they actually have political power for the first time from the election the other week in a way they never had before Worth pointing out the largest nationalist party and the largest unionist party are supposed to share power equally in the sectarian state and the only change here is symbolic. The unionist parties have insisted on the First Minister-Deputy First Minister distinction for years although it has now came back to bite them.

mhoad 4y ago
Agreed, I didn't get into it in the original comment because it's a pretty deep topic obviously but the idea of "having power" is an extremely shaky description at best. From an outside perspective it really seems like the DUP have painted themselves into an extremely weird corner with Brexit and their new demands that looks increasingly like it was a fatal strategic move for them from a political point of view. You already have the UVF claiming to no longer respect the GFA and it's all rather unclear where they go from here. Excellent podcast episode on the topic from a year ago before the election obviously here talking about the context leading up to all of this along with what dissident politics looks like since the end of the troubles https://podcastaddict.com/episode/120707318 https://podcastaddict.com/episode/120707318
- sentinalien 4y ago
  Yes, it's difficult to understand the logic and lack of foresight behind many of the DUP's decisions over the last few years, particularly during the period they acted as kingmakers for the Tories in 2017-2019.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    A combination of traditional intransigence - saying no to everything has, after all, been their strategy for decades - and Brexit-related corruption: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/you-aren-t-allowed-to-know-who-paid-for-key-leave-campaign-adverts/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/y...

noneeeed 4y ago

Could you share some of the books you've read? I think I have a better knowledge of the history than the average English person, but I'm also very conscious that I've probably only scratched the surface on a very complex and tangled history. I've heard that said about the IRA by people from the UK intellegence/security services. There was a level of "trust" and predictability between enemies that made it possible to negotiate a peace and to have channels of communication between them which were essential in the early days of the peace process. I think it helped that there was a comprehensible end-goal for the IRA. This contrasts with the current rather nebulous aims of islamic and far-right terrorism in the UK, and their rather chaotic, ill-disceplined and isolated little groups.

mhoad 4y ago
Yeah of course! I break them out into a few different categories depending on what you're actually looking for. For a straight up history perspective that also goes pretty deep into the shadowy nature of it all I enjoyed The Dirty War by Martin Dillon. I also enjoyed one called The Morality of Terrorism which does a nice job of jumping between the theoretical and practical aspects about the "just war theory" and also looks at from a real politik point of view if it was worth it? The answer was unsurprisingly no and makes the argument that in many ways the PIRA ended up where they started or at least that the conditions of the GFA were similar to a potential ceasefire deal that was on the cards early on in the war. They had the tools they needed by that point to pursue their political goals without violence and that it was all ultimately a strategic mistake and everyone is worse off for it. Then there are a bunch of autobiographies from various points of view which capture a lot of that gritty on the ground detail and the behind the scenes thinking. == Insider: Gerry Bradley's Life in the IRA == This is the POV from a particularly senior operations guy in the IRA and has this interesting subcontext looking at how the popularity for the war changes over the years from this kind of "patriotic struggle" to just something extremely dark that people want nothing to do with and in the process he goes from a hero to villain figure in the eyes of many and his own disillusionment with it all. He had to go into hiding after writing this book and then killed himself shortly after presumably because of that level of disillusionment. == The Volunteer : A Former IRA Man's True Story == Interesting story about how this guy gets radicalised at a young age and goes on to be the most famous bomb maker during the war, his eventual capture and deradicalisation. More of a real foot solider level perspective with no real influence on the scenario around him. It's real "true believer" stuff to something entirely different by the end of it all. == Watching The Door: A Memoir 1971-1978 by Kevin Myers == This is the point of view of a local catholic journalist who was kind of the eyes and the ears on the ground for a lot of the world at the time. == MRF Shadow Troop by Simon Cursey == This story as told by one member of the secret and particularly controversial British intelligence units during the war. == Southside Provisional by Kieran Conway == The story as told by the PIRAs own head of intelligence and his experience going up against the British security services. Provides a interesting look at things from the leadership level inside the group. == Fifty Dead Men Walking, Martin McGartland == The story as told by a guy who starts in the IRA in a supporting role rather than an operational capacity and is eventually recruited to spy for for the British who had access to the inner circle of the PIRAs upper command (he was their driver) and how he was eventually discovered, and in a very dramatic turn of events was able to escape by jumping from a 3rd story window right before they were about to kill him. It's a good example I thought about my original comment where the concept of "good and bad" in the troubles just doesn't work well as a framing no matter how much we want it to. The entire thing was a massive shit show and this kind of helps to unwind some of those romantic notions people seem to have in the younger generations of that period. His story also went on to become a movie by the same name which if I recall correctly is on YouTube.

tragomaskhalos 4y ago

Pinker's 'Better Angels of our Nature' has an interesting take on how political violence always ends up self-defeating because it inevitably goes too far and alienates its constituency. It took a lot of political courage from all sides to resolve to move forward peacefully, but ultimately it was ordinary people's desire for that "normal life" that was the engine imo.