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> There's a reason why many UK developers stay here and don't move to the Silicon Valley to work for Netflix for half a million dollars a year. Because it's in

> There's a reason why many UK developers stay here and don't move to the Silicon Valley to work for Netflix for half a million dollars a year. Because it's incredibly hard to get a work visa, and it comes with a lot of restrictions. It's better for the US corporations to keep us as colonies of cheap labour for offshoring.

sph 4y ago
No, that's not the only factor. It may come as a surprise to some, but not everyone wants to live in the US, or live the US company life. I couldn't care less about getting a work visa and doubling my salary if it means I have to live in Silicon Valley. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's not for me, and for many others. $250k/yr in Europe > $500k/yr in US, especially since in Europe that would put me somewhere in the 1% and I would live like a prince pretty much everywhere. And more personally, $250k/yr at a company I enjoy > $1M/yr at a FAANG. I have no interest in getting filthy rich working for any of those companies, but YMMV.
- shippintoboston 4y ago
  I make $230k now and I'm willing to halve that to get out of America. Every time I've visited Europe I'm reminded of how money really doesn't buy happiness as cliche as thet sounds.
  - arroz 4y ago
    Yeah go be poor in Europe, see how fun that is My brother got a job in London long ago, only thing he could do is rent a bedroom in a shared house Compared to renting a house in Canada with similar wage
    - PaulRobinson 4y ago
      There are places in Europe other than London. In fact, put up with a 90-minute commute a couple of days a week, and you can be living in places with half the housing costs. I always find it strange that on HN we all end up talking about London salaries and London cost of living. Believe it or not, other options exist…
    - shippintoboston 4y ago
      Makes 100k+ euro in Europe is not "being poor" Despite the reductiveness of your argument there are things people value more than just buying a big house. The quality of life you get In Europe is superior in my opinion to the one in America. The way cities are laid out and the pervasiveness of public transit allows for a better social life. I could go on and on but if you're going to be on this forum and engage with others you should adjust your attitude.
    - gitrog 4y ago
      London != Europe
- nivenkos 4y ago
  But almost no-one is earning $250k/year in Europe. Not even the Prime Minister. That's the issue, it's more like earning $60k in EU vs. $160k in the US for most Tech workers. And the latter is much, much better.
  - MrJohz 4y ago
    Ah yes. That classic job. Prime Minister of Europe...
  - sph 4y ago
    I'm closer to the second figure working in the UK, actually. You won't certainly get $60k/yr working for one of the FAANG offices in London. In fact, how many US Netflix employees are actually earning $500k/yr like we were discussing upthread? I doubt that's the salary of a junior frontend employee. If it is, good for them. I don't think my quality of life and happiness would change dramatically between $250k and $1M/yr, but apparently this is so hard to convey to an American audience that thinks more money == more happiness.
    - PretzelPirate 4y ago
      I think for Americans (I am one), more money == less fear. We don’t have any real social safety nets, so making $500k/year let’s you pay off your house and save for retirement faster. I’d give up my $500k/year salary to move to Europe and feel more supported if anything went wrong, but I do wonder how much support someone on a work visa in the UK/EU gets if they lose their job.
      - arroz 4y ago
        Social safety net like what? I just moved to Canada Health care is free and I am covered on my visa Medication / dentist is not but my company has private health insurance so I am covered for that too Education for kids is free too Public transport sucks but that is because I am in a small city Europe is better connected and I’ve heard their public health care is better, but I doubt it would be too different I don’t know at what else the social safety net in Europe would be better Unless people want to leave miserably, they need to pay rent and food everywhere (heck, you even have food stamp in the states) Keep in mind things tend to be cheaper in the US than in Europe
- vt100 4y ago
  $250k ~= £200k which gets you a decent lifestyle in London but definitely not living like a prince!
  - sph 4y ago
    You won't get a four bedroom in Mayfair with that salary, but living in Mayfair is not my idea of fun either. Yet with that salary you can afford a very nice house outside of central London, you can travel, eat at a fancy restaurant whenever you want, get the latest iDevice every year and buy a new car with cash when the old one breaks, provided you're smart with your money. To my European tastes that's living like a prince (not a king) In the UK £200k puts you solidly in the 1% bracket - that is, 99% of people earn less than you. If that's not princely, I don't know what is.
    - pandaman 4y ago
      For one, I'd think actual princes and princesses[1] in UK live a bit better than what you described. But I can see your point: you take comfort in knowing that you are wealthy relative to the masses. I get this a lot from the recruiters from UK/Europe. It does not do anything for me: if I have to live in an apartment instead of a house I am not going to feel happy about it because 99% of people live in even worse apartment. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_British_princes_and_princesses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_British_prince...
- mmarq 4y ago
  I earn in excess of 200K£ (So 300K$) in London and in no way I live like a prince. I managed to buy an average flat (at least for continental European standards) in a semi-decent area (Battersea) and that took 10 years of savings plus 3K£pm in mortgage (which is roughly one third of my net income) for the next 25+ years. I pay 2K per month for a random nursery and another 500-600£ for a baby sitter, because the nursery doesn't keep the baby after 1630. I spend in excess of 1K pm in food and bills. That’s a total of almost 7K£ per month just to put a (continental European quality) roof over my head and it’s 70-80% of my aftertax income. If I lose my job, I’m homeless in 3 months. I’d gladly move to the US if I didn’t have to go through their hellish immigration system (and I may leave the UK if the Brexit madness keeps degenerating).
  - sph 4y ago
    Holy shit, you need to learn to make your money work for you. If you're homeless in 3 months on a 200k salary, you're doing something very wrong. That's not a fault of the UK salaries, it's you being terrible with your money. The US won't save you from yourself.
    - mmarq 4y ago
      London is insanely expensive and you need a household income of ~140-150K£ to live like a normal person in continental Europe (80sqm flat with 2.6mt ceilings and insulated windows and working kitchen, I'm not asking for a toilet with a window because that would be super-upper class). If you don't go on holidays and are parsimonious with take-aways, the additional 50K to get to 200K are taxed at ~50%, so you get to keep 25K. If you lose your job, one year of savings earns you 3-4 months of survival.
qazpot 4y ago
Funny, english people crying about being colonies.

sph 4y ago

No, that's not the only factor. It may come as a surprise to some, but not everyone wants to live in the US, or live the US company life. I couldn't care less about getting a work visa and doubling my salary if it means I have to live in Silicon Valley. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's not for me, and for many others. $250k/yr in Europe > $500k/yr in US, especially since in Europe that would put me somewhere in the 1% and I would live like a prince pretty much everywhere. And more personally, $250k/yr at a company I enjoy > $1M/yr at a FAANG. I have no interest in getting filthy rich working for any of those companies, but YMMV.

shippintoboston 4y ago
I make $230k now and I'm willing to halve that to get out of America. Every time I've visited Europe I'm reminded of how money really doesn't buy happiness as cliche as thet sounds.
- arroz 4y ago
  Yeah go be poor in Europe, see how fun that is My brother got a job in London long ago, only thing he could do is rent a bedroom in a shared house Compared to renting a house in Canada with similar wage
  - PaulRobinson 4y ago
    There are places in Europe other than London. In fact, put up with a 90-minute commute a couple of days a week, and you can be living in places with half the housing costs. I always find it strange that on HN we all end up talking about London salaries and London cost of living. Believe it or not, other options exist…
  - shippintoboston 4y ago
    Makes 100k+ euro in Europe is not "being poor" Despite the reductiveness of your argument there are things people value more than just buying a big house. The quality of life you get In Europe is superior in my opinion to the one in America. The way cities are laid out and the pervasiveness of public transit allows for a better social life. I could go on and on but if you're going to be on this forum and engage with others you should adjust your attitude.
  - gitrog 4y ago
    London != Europe
nivenkos 4y ago
But almost no-one is earning $250k/year in Europe. Not even the Prime Minister. That's the issue, it's more like earning $60k in EU vs. $160k in the US for most Tech workers. And the latter is much, much better.
- MrJohz 4y ago
  Ah yes. That classic job. Prime Minister of Europe...
- sph 4y ago
  I'm closer to the second figure working in the UK, actually. You won't certainly get $60k/yr working for one of the FAANG offices in London. In fact, how many US Netflix employees are actually earning $500k/yr like we were discussing upthread? I doubt that's the salary of a junior frontend employee. If it is, good for them. I don't think my quality of life and happiness would change dramatically between $250k and $1M/yr, but apparently this is so hard to convey to an American audience that thinks more money == more happiness.
  - PretzelPirate 4y ago
    I think for Americans (I am one), more money == less fear. We don’t have any real social safety nets, so making $500k/year let’s you pay off your house and save for retirement faster. I’d give up my $500k/year salary to move to Europe and feel more supported if anything went wrong, but I do wonder how much support someone on a work visa in the UK/EU gets if they lose their job.
    - arroz 4y ago
      Social safety net like what? I just moved to Canada Health care is free and I am covered on my visa Medication / dentist is not but my company has private health insurance so I am covered for that too Education for kids is free too Public transport sucks but that is because I am in a small city Europe is better connected and I’ve heard their public health care is better, but I doubt it would be too different I don’t know at what else the social safety net in Europe would be better Unless people want to leave miserably, they need to pay rent and food everywhere (heck, you even have food stamp in the states) Keep in mind things tend to be cheaper in the US than in Europe
vt100 4y ago
$250k ~= £200k which gets you a decent lifestyle in London but definitely not living like a prince!
- sph 4y ago
  You won't get a four bedroom in Mayfair with that salary, but living in Mayfair is not my idea of fun either. Yet with that salary you can afford a very nice house outside of central London, you can travel, eat at a fancy restaurant whenever you want, get the latest iDevice every year and buy a new car with cash when the old one breaks, provided you're smart with your money. To my European tastes that's living like a prince (not a king) In the UK £200k puts you solidly in the 1% bracket - that is, 99% of people earn less than you. If that's not princely, I don't know what is.
  - pandaman 4y ago
    For one, I'd think actual princes and princesses[1] in UK live a bit better than what you described. But I can see your point: you take comfort in knowing that you are wealthy relative to the masses. I get this a lot from the recruiters from UK/Europe. It does not do anything for me: if I have to live in an apartment instead of a house I am not going to feel happy about it because 99% of people live in even worse apartment. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_British_princes_and_princesses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_British_prince...
mmarq 4y ago
I earn in excess of 200K£ (So 300K$) in London and in no way I live like a prince. I managed to buy an average flat (at least for continental European standards) in a semi-decent area (Battersea) and that took 10 years of savings plus 3K£pm in mortgage (which is roughly one third of my net income) for the next 25+ years. I pay 2K per month for a random nursery and another 500-600£ for a baby sitter, because the nursery doesn't keep the baby after 1630. I spend in excess of 1K pm in food and bills. That’s a total of almost 7K£ per month just to put a (continental European quality) roof over my head and it’s 70-80% of my aftertax income. If I lose my job, I’m homeless in 3 months. I’d gladly move to the US if I didn’t have to go through their hellish immigration system (and I may leave the UK if the Brexit madness keeps degenerating).
- sph 4y ago
  Holy shit, you need to learn to make your money work for you. If you're homeless in 3 months on a 200k salary, you're doing something very wrong. That's not a fault of the UK salaries, it's you being terrible with your money. The US won't save you from yourself.
  - mmarq 4y ago
    London is insanely expensive and you need a household income of ~140-150K£ to live like a normal person in continental Europe (80sqm flat with 2.6mt ceilings and insulated windows and working kitchen, I'm not asking for a toilet with a window because that would be super-upper class). If you don't go on holidays and are parsimonious with take-aways, the additional 50K to get to 200K are taxed at ~50%, so you get to keep 25K. If you lose your job, one year of savings earns you 3-4 months of survival.

qazpot 4y ago

Funny, english people crying about being colonies.