4 ms·

> Ireland claims it as a part of Ireland With the Good Friday Agreement, Ireland recognised Northern Ireland as a part of the UK. You probably already knew thi

by unmole 4y ago

> Ireland claims it as a part of Ireland With the Good Friday Agreement, Ireland recognised Northern Ireland as a part of the UK. You probably already knew this but I just wanted to clarify for anyone else reading.

PeterisP 4y ago
Unlike almost all other treaties about borders, in the Good Friday Agreement Ireland does not recognize Northern Ireland as a perpetual part of the UK and does not recognize unconditional sovereignty of UK over NI - it's a recognition of the current situation as reflecting the current wishes of the population but explicitly leaves the long-term outcome open ended, stipulates that UK sovereignty is conditional upon NI population wishing to stay part of UK and mandates that if that choice of NI people changes, then UK has a binding obligation to cede Northern Ireland, no matter what people in England/Scotland/Wales would vote for.
- sgt101 4y ago
  Treaties like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement?
  - patrickk 4y ago
    Interestingly, the UK and ROI are not in Schengen[1], but jointly have a Common Travel Area[2], which means Irish passport holders can live and work in the EU and in the UK, post Brexit. British and Irish citizens can generally live and work in the other country without visas. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/ms97x/venn_diagram_illustrating_all_the_different/ https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/ms97x/venn_diagram_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
    - ftyers 4y ago
      And vote too... I think the only election that can't be voted for is English people resident in Ireland for the president (for obvious reasons... there is no equivalent vote in England).
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    No, the treaties which actually set the borders and acknowledge or cede sovereignty, for example the Paris Peace treaties of 1947 setting some of the post-WW2 borders, and many others, usually being peace treaties following some conflict that changed the borders. Schengen is about regulating travel over the existing borders, Schengen is not a border treaty about where the exactly the borders lie and which country has full sovereignty over some land. While in colloquial language Schengen can be described as "eliminating borders", of course that is only a limited metaphor/analogy and the Schengen treaty does not challenge or change the validity of borders between countries in the Schengen area - even if it's trivial for people to cross over some Schengen border, it is not questioned that the sovereignty and laws change across that line.
asveikau 4y ago
I thought "Ireland" refers to the island as a whole and "Republic of Ireland" is the non UK part. By this definition, Northern Ireland is part of Ireland and the inhabitants are still called Irish. I don't know a ton of Irish people but I think I've heard them say it like that too? On the other hand, there seem to also be contexts where "Ireland" is shorthand for "Republic of Ireland".
- unmole 4y ago
  The sovereign state that consists of 26 counties on island referes to itself as Ireland. Variations of The Republic are used for disambiguation but are not used officially. > Northern Ireland is part of Ireland The island yes. But not the Republic of the same name. > and the inhabitants are still called Irish. A large portion of the inhabitants see themselves as Irish. But there is also a large portion who see themselves as British. These are not necessarily exclusive categories as some of them see themselves as both British and Irish. There are also those who see themselves as Northern Irish. Full disclaimer: Not Irish or British, just have an unhealthy interest in the situation.
- a_paddy 4y ago
  "Ireland" is the official name of the country as per it's constitution. The "Republic of Ireland" is a description of the country given its status as a republic, and has been commonly mistaken as the name of the country due to editorial choices by some UK media. Even Wikipedia erroneously catalogues "Ireland" under "Republic of Ireland".
  - PostOnce 4y ago
    Wikipedia doesn't have it wrong per se, it's just that it can't have two articles by the same name (Ireland the island, and Ireland the nation, only one of those can be at /wiki/Ireland), so I guess they opted for Ireland to mean the island, and then the page for the country is /wiki/Republic_of_Ireland... However! That page makes it clear that the name of the country is Ireland: Ireland (Irish: Éire [ˈeːɾʲə] (listen)), also known as the Republic of Ireland (Poblacht na hÉireann), since Ireland there takes precedence. In conclusion, I think it's just a technical limitation.

by unmole 4y ago

PeterisP 4y ago

Unlike almost all other treaties about borders, in the Good Friday Agreement Ireland does not recognize Northern Ireland as a perpetual part of the UK and does not recognize unconditional sovereignty of UK over NI - it's a recognition of the current situation as reflecting the current wishes of the population but explicitly leaves the long-term outcome open ended, stipulates that UK sovereignty is conditional upon NI population wishing to stay part of UK and mandates that if that choice of NI people changes, then UK has a binding obligation to cede Northern Ireland, no matter what people in England/Scotland/Wales would vote for.

sgt101 4y ago
Treaties like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement?
- patrickk 4y ago
  Interestingly, the UK and ROI are not in Schengen[1], but jointly have a Common Travel Area[2], which means Irish passport holders can live and work in the EU and in the UK, post Brexit. British and Irish citizens can generally live and work in the other country without visas. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/ms97x/venn_diagram_illustrating_all_the_different/ https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/ms97x/venn_diagram_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
  - ftyers 4y ago
    And vote too... I think the only election that can't be voted for is English people resident in Ireland for the president (for obvious reasons... there is no equivalent vote in England).
- PeterisP 4y ago
  No, the treaties which actually set the borders and acknowledge or cede sovereignty, for example the Paris Peace treaties of 1947 setting some of the post-WW2 borders, and many others, usually being peace treaties following some conflict that changed the borders. Schengen is about regulating travel over the existing borders, Schengen is not a border treaty about where the exactly the borders lie and which country has full sovereignty over some land. While in colloquial language Schengen can be described as "eliminating borders", of course that is only a limited metaphor/analogy and the Schengen treaty does not challenge or change the validity of borders between countries in the Schengen area - even if it's trivial for people to cross over some Schengen border, it is not questioned that the sovereignty and laws change across that line.

asveikau 4y ago

I thought "Ireland" refers to the island as a whole and "Republic of Ireland" is the non UK part. By this definition, Northern Ireland is part of Ireland and the inhabitants are still called Irish. I don't know a ton of Irish people but I think I've heard them say it like that too? On the other hand, there seem to also be contexts where "Ireland" is shorthand for "Republic of Ireland".

unmole 4y ago
The sovereign state that consists of 26 counties on island referes to itself as Ireland. Variations of The Republic are used for disambiguation but are not used officially. > Northern Ireland is part of Ireland The island yes. But not the Republic of the same name. > and the inhabitants are still called Irish. A large portion of the inhabitants see themselves as Irish. But there is also a large portion who see themselves as British. These are not necessarily exclusive categories as some of them see themselves as both British and Irish. There are also those who see themselves as Northern Irish. Full disclaimer: Not Irish or British, just have an unhealthy interest in the situation.
a_paddy 4y ago
"Ireland" is the official name of the country as per it's constitution. The "Republic of Ireland" is a description of the country given its status as a republic, and has been commonly mistaken as the name of the country due to editorial choices by some UK media. Even Wikipedia erroneously catalogues "Ireland" under "Republic of Ireland".
- PostOnce 4y ago
  Wikipedia doesn't have it wrong per se, it's just that it can't have two articles by the same name (Ireland the island, and Ireland the nation, only one of those can be at /wiki/Ireland), so I guess they opted for Ireland to mean the island, and then the page for the country is /wiki/Republic_of_Ireland... However! That page makes it clear that the name of the country is Ireland: Ireland (Irish: Éire [ˈeːɾʲə] (listen)), also known as the Republic of Ireland (Poblacht na hÉireann), since Ireland there takes precedence. In conclusion, I think it's just a technical limitation.