9 ms·

If workers want the right to disconnect, they need to exercise it without asking permission of management or the government. I sure as hell don't ask permissio

If workers want the right to disconnect, they need to exercise it without asking permission of management or the government. I sure as hell don't ask permission to turn off my company-issued devices at 5pm and ignore them until 8am the next morning. Nor do I ask permission to ignore work-related comms outside of business hours, because I don't work for free. I already have the right to disconnect. I have always had it, because I am a human being and autonomy is a human right. Remember: power yields nothing without a demand, and direct action gets the goods.

gsibble 4y ago
This is my attitude. Come 5pm, the phone goes into a focus mode ignoring work. I ignore any other desktop communications, frequently closing Slack and Superhuman. Disconnecting from work is the only way to stay sane. No one has yelled at me yet at this job. Previous jobs were awful though. We started work at 10am everyday and the CTO woke me up by calling twice at 7am to break through my do not disturb, just to tell me to push a feature asap. Nothing critical at all. Some bosses absolutely have zero respect for personal time and space.
- pnutjam 4y ago
  Last place I worked, I was on call once every 4 weeks or so which entailed getting up in the middle of the night at least 3 days and often more then once. They also practiced dog-pile trouble shooting where everyone was expected to hop on "red alerts" and stay on the call until the issue was resolved. I've seen it take 6hrs+, running past 5 o'clock or sometimes starting in the evening and running for hours. During the pandemic, I unplugged around 3pm to grab some new shoes for a kid that had ripped theirs out, because other guys were around and after 5pm I'm on my own. Boss starts texting me, "where are you" and "you should do this stuff after hours"... This really left a sour taste and I've since moved on. We need some sort of ability to demand OT, hour for hour comp time, and after hours compensation. One person can fight back, but we are constantly undercut by management. I would often try to comp time and get hit up because it's a busy week, then later that comp time would evaporate and I'd get alot of flack trying to claw it back. My preference is not to comp my time in the morning, but I'd end up clocking in an hour later afew times a week just to try and get some of my time back.
  - taf2 4y ago
    Did you get a new job and does it have better options for you requiring less time?
    - pnutjam 4y ago
      Yes, more pay and better on call hours. All remote.
  - cameronh90 4y ago
    Compensation or time off in lieu for overtime and callouts is the bare minimum we should expect. That shouldn't even be up for debate, and I'm glad to say, everywhere I've worked (in the UK) respects that. Where I have problems is being expected to be available while "on call" but not being paid for it. In my opinion: if you can't get shit faced, you're working, and should be compensated accordingly with all working time regulations applying as normal.
    - pnutjam 4y ago
      Yeah, we didn't get anything above our regular salary.
    - genewitch 4y ago
      Remember the hurricane that hit Virginia in 2012 or 2013? I wasn't even "on call" - i was just the only person with credentials. I told the DBA and the boss and the CTO that you can't just fix an outage at a cloud provider due to hurricane with telnet and a prayer candle. Then i opened a bottle of whisky, and listened to them try to figure out how much data we lost, until about 5 AM. I don't remember if i was hourly contract or hourly employee at that point, but i did get ~8 hours of pay that evening for doing nothing but not unmuting my voice on the phone call! I don't do Disaster Recovery anymore, no one really listens.
  - zrail 4y ago
    > We need some sort of ability to demand OT, hour for hour comp time, and after hours compensation. The word is "union". You want a union.
- musicale 4y ago
  > Some bosses absolutely have zero respect for personal time and space. Pecking order is everything. In most organizations, exercising said disrespect for subordinates is a key method for management to demonstrate, enforce, and enjoy their higher social status. Similarly, subordinates must exercise respect and deference to the time, space, and attention of management. This is a key method to help employees demonstrate, acknowledge, and internalize their lower social status. Any threats to the status hierarchy threaten the structure of the organization and are usually dealt with harshly.
  - gsibble 4y ago
    Indeed. I'll never work for a company like that again. And it's another reason managers want people back in offices.
zwieback 4y ago
Same here, when my hours are up I'm done, work will be there for me in the morning. I'm surprised how many of my coworkers say they "feel" like they can't do that. I'm working in an engineering organization with major retention issues so at this point there's no way we will be punished for insisting on work-life balance. I think at least 50% of the problem is on the employee side.
cameronh90 4y ago
Hell, most of the time I don't even reply to things immediately during work hours. Unless it requires absolute immediate attention, don't expect an immediate response. If you want sync comms for collaboration, organize a meeting and I'm all yours for two hours or as long as it takes. Otherwise, I'm putting myself on DND and checking my email and IMs every few hours so I have some space for deep focus.
jedberg 4y ago
This is the standard argument as to why no government regulation is necessary -- "because you can just walk away/change jobs!" You are lucky because you have the privilege of being able to do this. Not everyone does. A lot of people need they job they have to continue, and their boss will fire them for not responding to an email at 9pm. Those are the people that need government protection and regulation, or a union, or both. Because their employer won't do it unless forced to and they don't have to privilege to ignore it like you do.
- EddieDante 4y ago
  > This is the standard argument as to why no government regulation is necessary -- "because you can just walk away/change jobs!" I didn't say this because I think government regulation or unionization isn't necessary. I said it because I don't believe government regulation will happen in the US in my lifetime. Nor do I expect to see the big 4 consulting firms unionized before Judgment Day. And, yes, I have lost jobs for not picking up the phone at 10pm on a Saturday night. Freedom isn't free. I look for individual solutions to systemic issues because I don't trust the collective to have my back. I understand that collective action is necessary, but let's face it: the left in the US is too busy dicking around with the culture war to show up for the class war. They think that labels describing race, gender, sexuality, etc matter more than whether you're working-class or owning-class. I'm looking out for myself because I've given up on anybody else looking out for me. I advise others to do the same.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Just because you’ve given up doesn’t mean you should advise others to do the same. Like an airplane, put the oxygen mask on yourself before helping others. You’ve then de-risked individually while supporting improvements for workers collectively.
    - EddieDante 4y ago
      Who says I'm giving up? I'm engaging in industrial action on my own since others in my workplace are unwilling to join me. I'm being the change I want to see in the world by engaging in work-to-rule.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
yodsanklai 4y ago
Does it mean you work with focus from 8am to 5pm? And suppose that you're working in a competitive environment and you won't meet the expectation for your job if you don't work a few extra hours? I entirely agree it's your right, but if you're ambitious and working more can help you to achieve certain goals, it's not unreasonable to work more than the bare minimum. As long as it's a personal choice, I think it's fine.
50 4y ago
"We are taught that corporations have a soul, which is the most terrifying news in the world" (Deleuze, Postscript on the Societies of Control).

gsibble 4y ago

This is my attitude. Come 5pm, the phone goes into a focus mode ignoring work. I ignore any other desktop communications, frequently closing Slack and Superhuman. Disconnecting from work is the only way to stay sane. No one has yelled at me yet at this job. Previous jobs were awful though. We started work at 10am everyday and the CTO woke me up by calling twice at 7am to break through my do not disturb, just to tell me to push a feature asap. Nothing critical at all. Some bosses absolutely have zero respect for personal time and space.

pnutjam 4y ago
Last place I worked, I was on call once every 4 weeks or so which entailed getting up in the middle of the night at least 3 days and often more then once. They also practiced dog-pile trouble shooting where everyone was expected to hop on "red alerts" and stay on the call until the issue was resolved. I've seen it take 6hrs+, running past 5 o'clock or sometimes starting in the evening and running for hours. During the pandemic, I unplugged around 3pm to grab some new shoes for a kid that had ripped theirs out, because other guys were around and after 5pm I'm on my own. Boss starts texting me, "where are you" and "you should do this stuff after hours"... This really left a sour taste and I've since moved on. We need some sort of ability to demand OT, hour for hour comp time, and after hours compensation. One person can fight back, but we are constantly undercut by management. I would often try to comp time and get hit up because it's a busy week, then later that comp time would evaporate and I'd get alot of flack trying to claw it back. My preference is not to comp my time in the morning, but I'd end up clocking in an hour later afew times a week just to try and get some of my time back.
- taf2 4y ago
  Did you get a new job and does it have better options for you requiring less time?
  - pnutjam 4y ago
    Yes, more pay and better on call hours. All remote.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  Compensation or time off in lieu for overtime and callouts is the bare minimum we should expect. That shouldn't even be up for debate, and I'm glad to say, everywhere I've worked (in the UK) respects that. Where I have problems is being expected to be available while "on call" but not being paid for it. In my opinion: if you can't get shit faced, you're working, and should be compensated accordingly with all working time regulations applying as normal.
  - pnutjam 4y ago
    Yeah, we didn't get anything above our regular salary.
  - genewitch 4y ago
    Remember the hurricane that hit Virginia in 2012 or 2013? I wasn't even "on call" - i was just the only person with credentials. I told the DBA and the boss and the CTO that you can't just fix an outage at a cloud provider due to hurricane with telnet and a prayer candle. Then i opened a bottle of whisky, and listened to them try to figure out how much data we lost, until about 5 AM. I don't remember if i was hourly contract or hourly employee at that point, but i did get ~8 hours of pay that evening for doing nothing but not unmuting my voice on the phone call! I don't do Disaster Recovery anymore, no one really listens.
- zrail 4y ago
  > We need some sort of ability to demand OT, hour for hour comp time, and after hours compensation. The word is "union". You want a union.
musicale 4y ago
> Some bosses absolutely have zero respect for personal time and space. Pecking order is everything. In most organizations, exercising said disrespect for subordinates is a key method for management to demonstrate, enforce, and enjoy their higher social status. Similarly, subordinates must exercise respect and deference to the time, space, and attention of management. This is a key method to help employees demonstrate, acknowledge, and internalize their lower social status. Any threats to the status hierarchy threaten the structure of the organization and are usually dealt with harshly.
- gsibble 4y ago
  Indeed. I'll never work for a company like that again. And it's another reason managers want people back in offices.

zwieback 4y ago

Same here, when my hours are up I'm done, work will be there for me in the morning. I'm surprised how many of my coworkers say they "feel" like they can't do that. I'm working in an engineering organization with major retention issues so at this point there's no way we will be punished for insisting on work-life balance. I think at least 50% of the problem is on the employee side.

cameronh90 4y ago

Hell, most of the time I don't even reply to things immediately during work hours. Unless it requires absolute immediate attention, don't expect an immediate response. If you want sync comms for collaboration, organize a meeting and I'm all yours for two hours or as long as it takes. Otherwise, I'm putting myself on DND and checking my email and IMs every few hours so I have some space for deep focus.

jedberg 4y ago

This is the standard argument as to why no government regulation is necessary -- "because you can just walk away/change jobs!" You are lucky because you have the privilege of being able to do this. Not everyone does. A lot of people need they job they have to continue, and their boss will fire them for not responding to an email at 9pm. Those are the people that need government protection and regulation, or a union, or both. Because their employer won't do it unless forced to and they don't have to privilege to ignore it like you do.

EddieDante 4y ago
> This is the standard argument as to why no government regulation is necessary -- "because you can just walk away/change jobs!" I didn't say this because I think government regulation or unionization isn't necessary. I said it because I don't believe government regulation will happen in the US in my lifetime. Nor do I expect to see the big 4 consulting firms unionized before Judgment Day. And, yes, I have lost jobs for not picking up the phone at 10pm on a Saturday night. Freedom isn't free. I look for individual solutions to systemic issues because I don't trust the collective to have my back. I understand that collective action is necessary, but let's face it: the left in the US is too busy dicking around with the culture war to show up for the class war. They think that labels describing race, gender, sexuality, etc matter more than whether you're working-class or owning-class. I'm looking out for myself because I've given up on anybody else looking out for me. I advise others to do the same.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Just because you’ve given up doesn’t mean you should advise others to do the same. Like an airplane, put the oxygen mask on yourself before helping others. You’ve then de-risked individually while supporting improvements for workers collectively.
  - EddieDante 4y ago
    Who says I'm giving up? I'm engaging in industrial action on my own since others in my workplace are unwilling to join me. I'm being the change I want to see in the world by engaging in work-to-rule.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

yodsanklai 4y ago

Does it mean you work with focus from 8am to 5pm? And suppose that you're working in a competitive environment and you won't meet the expectation for your job if you don't work a few extra hours? I entirely agree it's your right, but if you're ambitious and working more can help you to achieve certain goals, it's not unreasonable to work more than the bare minimum. As long as it's a personal choice, I think it's fine.

50 4y ago

"We are taught that corporations have a soul, which is the most terrifying news in the world" (Deleuze, Postscript on the Societies of Control).