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does this mean gop is no longer allowed to talk about democrats cheating census by insisting that it must include undocumented immigrants? i am not a big consum

does this mean gop is no longer allowed to talk about democrats cheating census by insisting that it must include undocumented immigrants? i am not a big consumer of conservative news but that is the only thing they are pushing that comes close to nyt claims

QuercusMax 4y ago
The census has ALWAYS counted everyone, regardless of immigration status. Formal immigration processes are extremely new compared with the age of this country. Right-wingers are just playing into racist fears as they've done for centuries.
- AzzieElbab 4y ago
  Well, mass illegal immigration wasnt ALWAYS a thing. We are talking about political issue of whether some states should receive more seats in congress due to number of undocumented immigrants they host. It is not a racist thing, it is a political thing.
  - QuercusMax 4y ago
    Sure it was. It was how the whole of North America was colonized. White settlers broke treaties and settled on land they weren't supposed to. This was mass illegal immigration too.
    - cato_the_elder 4y ago
      > This was mass illegal immigration too. Not really. Colonization is a very different phenomenon. So is conquest.
    - AzzieElbab 4y ago
      How does one thing fix the other? Post below pretty much explains how irrelevant this comparison is. Pre-state borders?
      - QuercusMax 4y ago
        Never said it did, but people have moved across borders since time immemorial.
        cato_the_elder 4y ago
        It's correct that people moved around since forever. But I think applying the the concept of illegal immigration to colonization of Americas doesn't make sense. The indigenous Americans didn't organize their societies as nation states. So, I doubt that they had "borders" in the sense used here. Supporting this is the fact that their cartography wasn't very advanced. Here's how their maps looked like: https://www.archaeology.org/issues/338-features/maps/7549-maps-south-carolina-catawba-map https://www.archaeology.org/issues/338-features/maps/7549-ma...
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Well, mass illegal immigration wasnt ALWAYS a thing. It has been for the whole time since entry policy shifted from default-allow to default-deny (a change itself largely based in racism, notwithstanding that there are good reasons to want to avoid a large, permanent, non-citizen population); when the US had open immigration and only restrictive rules for naturalization, yes, mass illegal immigration wasn't an issue. [0] > It is not a racist thing, it is a political thing. That's like the “it was not about slavery, just states rights” line about the civil war; and just like that it sets up a false dichotomy to pretend that the (true) more general description falsifies the (also true) more specific description. [0] I want to emphasize that this is not advocacy for a return to such a policy, only noting that the US has never, for any significant time, had a working restrictive immigration policy without significant illegal immigration.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - AzzieElbab 4y ago
      Interesting. Since everyone insists that that everything about the US should also be about racism I will argue that getting a seat in congress due to bloated census to represent people who cannot vote is a form of political enslavement.

QuercusMax 4y ago

The census has ALWAYS counted everyone, regardless of immigration status. Formal immigration processes are extremely new compared with the age of this country. Right-wingers are just playing into racist fears as they've done for centuries.

AzzieElbab 4y ago
Well, mass illegal immigration wasnt ALWAYS a thing. We are talking about political issue of whether some states should receive more seats in congress due to number of undocumented immigrants they host. It is not a racist thing, it is a political thing.
- QuercusMax 4y ago
  Sure it was. It was how the whole of North America was colonized. White settlers broke treaties and settled on land they weren't supposed to. This was mass illegal immigration too.
  - cato_the_elder 4y ago
    > This was mass illegal immigration too. Not really. Colonization is a very different phenomenon. So is conquest.
  - AzzieElbab 4y ago
    How does one thing fix the other? Post below pretty much explains how irrelevant this comparison is. Pre-state borders?
    - QuercusMax 4y ago
      Never said it did, but people have moved across borders since time immemorial.
      - cato_the_elder 4y ago
        It's correct that people moved around since forever. But I think applying the the concept of illegal immigration to colonization of Americas doesn't make sense. The indigenous Americans didn't organize their societies as nation states. So, I doubt that they had "borders" in the sense used here. Supporting this is the fact that their cartography wasn't very advanced. Here's how their maps looked like: https://www.archaeology.org/issues/338-features/maps/7549-maps-south-carolina-catawba-map https://www.archaeology.org/issues/338-features/maps/7549-ma...
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Well, mass illegal immigration wasnt ALWAYS a thing. It has been for the whole time since entry policy shifted from default-allow to default-deny (a change itself largely based in racism, notwithstanding that there are good reasons to want to avoid a large, permanent, non-citizen population); when the US had open immigration and only restrictive rules for naturalization, yes, mass illegal immigration wasn't an issue. [0] > It is not a racist thing, it is a political thing. That's like the “it was not about slavery, just states rights” line about the civil war; and just like that it sets up a false dichotomy to pretend that the (true) more general description falsifies the (also true) more specific description. [0] I want to emphasize that this is not advocacy for a return to such a policy, only noting that the US has never, for any significant time, had a working restrictive immigration policy without significant illegal immigration.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - AzzieElbab 4y ago
    Interesting. Since everyone insists that that everything about the US should also be about racism I will argue that getting a seat in congress due to bloated census to represent people who cannot vote is a form of political enslavement.