25 ms·

“matching size and design of iPhone 13 Mini” So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow seller. https://www.macrumors.com/2022/04/21/ipho

“matching size and design of iPhone 13 Mini” So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow seller. https://www.macrumors.com/2022/04/21/iphone-13-mini-unpopular-march-quarter/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/04/21/iphone-13-mini-unpopula... Why would that form factor succeed in the Android space? --- I see these meme on tech sites all the time: “oh phones are too big I just want something simple”. That is a valid sentiment that I think is shared by basically no average consumer. For a lot of people, phones are their primary computing devices, so a big screen is nice there. Bigger phones allow for more battery capacity. Aging populations like them because you can use screen zoom features to really blow up that text size without making the effective viewport too small. And…people just like big stuff. I know that’s simplistic and a little condescending, but then look at SUV and truck sales.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
Another under-mentioned reason is that iPhones have more efficient processors that generate less heat, and also need less RAM to perform equivalently. Whereas, fitting a top-line Snapdragon into a small phone is a challenge. There’s a reason why top-tier phones have copper heatpipes, vapor chambers, and so on. All things no iPhone has or needs. You could still do a small Android phone, but you might have to abandon the idea of including a Snapdragon 8.
erohead 4y ago
I touch on this on the site. 5% of iPhones sold are minis. That's 10m sold per year! That is more than enough demand to cover the NREs and costs of making a phone. * https://9to5mac.com/2022/04/21/cirp-iphone-13-best-selling-lineup-in-recent-years-despite-tiny-interest-in-iphone-mini/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/04/21/cirp-iphone-13-best-selling-l...
- DANK_YACHT 4y ago
  5% seems quite small and not worth the trouble. It might be worth it if a small phone generated 5% in additional sales, but most people buying a small iPhone would likely buy a normal-sized iPhone if no small version was available rather than making the switch to Android.
  - blairbeckwith 4y ago
    The point is that 5% (or 10m phones) does not make sense for Apple to continue to build, but that has no relation to whether it's worth it to another company.
  - ncallaway 4y ago
    5% of 100 phones is 5 phones. 5% of 200,000,000 is 10,000,000. 5% can be a huge number, or a tiny number, depending on what it's 5% of. I switched from Android to Apple specifically for the iPhone mini, and if they killed it, I would switch to the smallest phone on the market.
    - DANK_YACHT 4y ago
      My point is that 5% is probably an irrelevant number because it’s not 5% additional sales. If the mini wasn’t available, many people would get a normal iPhone instead of switch to Android. So the net sales is closer to 0. Apple seems to agree with this sentiment and there will be no mini starting with the iPhone 14: https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/14/exclusive-iphone-14-coming-in-four-models-without-mini-version-pro-models-with-taller-screen-satellite-features-still-coming/amp/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/14/exclusive-iphone-14-coming-in... Good luck with your switch.
      - criddell 4y ago
        That's why I picked up an iPhone 13 Mini. It's a really great phone and when I need a new phone six years from now, I'm hoping there's something as good to replace it.
      - nostromo 4y ago
        Phone sales aren’t driven by switching, and haven’t been for a while, they’re about upgrading. Apple knows this better than anyone. For example: I upgrade my phone every two years or so, so long as I like the new phones. If I don’t like the new phones, I wait as long as possible. People that like smaller phones won’t necessarily leave the iPhone if they kill the Mini - they will just keep their current phones for as long as possible. And that can indeed hurt sales, even if Apple doesn’t lose market share.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  >That is more than enough demand to cover the NREs and costs of making a phone. Then why is Apple dropping it ?
  - jazzyjackson 4y ago
    because covering costs is not the same as maximizing profit
  - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
    I half suspect that Apple will be coming back with another small phone a few years down the line and then a cycle will continue where they will always have something like an SE or mini, but it won't ever be flagship level.
    - dylan-m 4y ago
      I feel like that has been the problem with the Mini. I love mine (which I got because I was fed up with Pixel and Android in general), but I know I only have it because I got in at the right time. My wife bought an iPhone at the wrong time and hers is comically large. She would have happily bought an iPhone Mini if it had been available that year. By the time she needs a new iPhone, it will be another year where the only options are gigantic.
- microtonal 4y ago
  Agreed. I hope the rumors are false and that they'll continue to make the Mini. However, 5% does not mean much if market research proves that those people would buy a regular iPhone anyway if they drop the Mini. I think there is also some competition with the iPhone SE. Even though the Mini is not intended to be a budget phone, it is 100 Euro cheaper than the non-mini. So, I can imagine a chunk of people would buy it for its lower price if the iPhone SE didn't exist. Even more if you consider that the Mini actually has a larger screen than the SE.
  - d3nj4l 4y ago
    It's as good as guaranteed that the mini won't be returning this year - dummy models of the upcoming line which are used to size cases have made their way to the usual leakers, and even before that the front panels of the line were leaked. No mini, unfortunately :/
    - rekoil 4y ago
      That said, Apple does tend to keep their designs for a fair while, so it's possible there will be one next year, or that it will become the new SE at some point. I really really want a Pro Mini :(
      - Bud 4y ago
        You won't get one, unfortunately, both because there's no motivation for Apple to make it, and because battery life would be an insurmountable issue, at least with current tech. The battery life in the Mini is already significantly inferior to the other iPhones in the line; Apple's only going to be willing to push that so far before it's an obviously-compromised product and they would just refuse to ship it.
    - hbn 4y ago
      I'd be fine if they made it a biennial release. I don't need to upgrade my phone more than that anyway. I feel like my plan right now is to hope with the iPhone 14 launch, the 13 mini will continue to be sold with a price drop, and then I'll upgrade my 12 mini to the 13 mini and get the battery improvement. I love the size of this phone and hope I'm never forced back to the gigantic "normal-sized" phones that we've gotten stuck with the past decade.
- achow 4y ago
  Hold on; the math is not that easy. For one - most of the iPhone Mini sale is because of 'Halo effect', die hard fans who anyway would have bought an iPhone, bought the mini version. An Android phone maker will not have that brand pull or halo effect to establish a new category, so it would be no where near that 10M number. Second, iPhone or Mac devices are known for hardware and software integration. That translates among other things to good battery life (similar to RAM. Apple never talks about RAM). iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department [1], one of the factor in its low sale as compared to bigger device. A Mini Android device will have mini batteries, that means it will have no chance in h* to last through the day - the minimum requirement in this day and age. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/apple-iphone-13-mini-review-camera-performance#:~:text=The%20battery%20doesn't%20last,for%20a%20phone%20this%20small https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/apple-iph....
  - minusf 4y ago
    > iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department might have been true for mini 12, but mini 13 has amazing battery life, certainly nothing like 2020 SE which is truly abysmal.
  - elorant 4y ago
    If you’re a diehard fan why would you buy a subpar phone, and not the latest flagship? Smaller phones imply less usage because some things aren’t as pleasant as on a bigger screen.
    - buildsjets 4y ago
      I guess I am a diehard fan of only small iPhones, as since 2007 my lineup has been: iPhone 3, iPhone 3Gs, iPhone 4, iPhone 5, iPhone SE, and currently 12 Mini. As far as I am concerned, the mini IS the flagship. I would never even consider buying one of the larger models, as I consider them to be subpar, unpleasant devices to carry and to use. I'd choose to carry no phone over having to carry a full-sized phone, they have become too large to be considered conveniently portable. For me, the perfect smart phone would be the same size and shape as a credit card, edge-to-edge screen on all sides, and approximately 3mm thick. And it would run iOS of course.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  But you're not Apple though.
Beltalowda 4y ago
The numbers on that site are a bit vague and I'm having a hard time making out the chart due to the colours, but they still sold millions of iPhone 13 Minis, right? Plus, you should probably add up the mini + SE as well for "small(-ish) phone demand". I think you can make a profitable niche selling smaller phones. Most people don't want a 12" laptop either as they consider it too small, but some people do and various companies still make a profit designing and selling them. I don't quite understand why it's so different for phones.
duxup 4y ago
Hopefully they just go to an every other year selling cycle on the mini or something like that.
hn_throwaway_69 4y ago
>people just like big stuff I'm inclined to think that applies more to Americans than people generally. Europeans and Australians can be quite content with smaller vehicles, smaller properties, and quite frankly smaller lifestyles.
- iforgotpassword 4y ago
  But admittedly here in Germany SUVs are also on the rise, even though we have that "environmentally conscious" reputation.
  - 0des 4y ago
    Yall are the home of VW right?
  - hef19898 4y ago
    And those SUVs still are relatively small compared to US-style pick-ups.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - hn_throwaway_69 4y ago
    Admittedly also on the rise in Australia, but they're nowhere near the size of pickup trucks that occupy American highways.
  - Etheryte 4y ago
    I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk of Germans as environmentally conscious. Car culture is usually one of the first things that comes up when someone talks about Germany.
    - iforgotpassword 4y ago
      Sure car culture is big, but does that mean people like big cars? Also curious where you're from that you never heard of this.
bloqs 4y ago
Every female member of my family has complained about devices being too big. Its clearly based on anecdotal evidence. People with smaller hands want to be able to operate the phone fully with one hand.
- d00k 4y ago
  Don't see the same with my family, girlfriend has a 13 Pro Max, mum and sister have the 11 Pro Max.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    From what I have seen. The average person would rather two hand their phone than have a smaller one.
- jwagenet 4y ago
  My girlfriend liked the mini, but didn’t get it partially because it doesn’t feature the 3 cameras. As long as the mini is positioned as a down brand phone, even for technical reasons, some of the interested market is excluded
  - rtkwe 4y ago
    There's just not enough space for all the random features people want in a small form factor phone and keep it thin-ish. The Pro Max camera group alone is 1/5-1/4 of the back real estate on the 12 mini.
  - skavi 4y ago
    One thing I don’t think people appreciate is just how impressively compact the Minis are. Every bit of space is used up. I doubt any Android OEM (with the exception of maybe Samsung) could get make a comparable device. Unless they used something akin to a laptop webcam, there simply isn’t enough space for a third camera.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  Every female member of my family has complained about devices being too big. My wife's solution to iPhones being too big was to upgrade all of her handbags and to buy flouncy dresses with pockets. Wanna trade families? Please?
dkackman11 4y ago
I am saddened to hear that there will be no iPhone 14 mini. I have the 12 mini and like the author do not want a huge phone.
izacus 4y ago
These "slow iPhone 13 mini" sales are more than all Google Pixel phones sold in a year. Think about that. I don't understand when did the ability to choose a product fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews and modern American perception. Why is being able to buy niche products somehow not a worthy thing to be desired?
- reaperducer 4y ago
  I don't understand when did the ability to choose a product fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews Because so many on HN have been indoctrinated into the "scale at all costs" mentality. It demonstrates the difference between HN and the real world. On HN, if you can't serve a billion people, your product is niche. In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice living making niche products. It's why so many people on HN don't understand Panic, or its PlayDate. They don't understand artisan anything. They've forgotten the whole hipster movement, which still exists in pockets of the world. They can't grok that there are companies that have been in business for hundreds of years making products one at a time — by hand. "X doesn't scale" is HN for "I know nothing about how the world works."
  - cortesoft 4y ago
    > In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice living making niche products. But rarely something as expensive to create as a smart phone.
    - izacus 4y ago
      Really? Because things like cabriolet cars, speciality cars, high-end audio equipment, luxury furniture and many others exist. If anything, mobile phone market is exceedingly horrible because of consolidation into a single product with not much choice.
      - cortesoft 4y ago
        Maybe we could have a market for very high end phones that cost $3000, but I haven't seen anyone try to fill that niche yet. Maybe it isn't there? Even if it was there, that doesn't mean the phone would be small. People who want small phones aren't necessarily wealthy, so they would only be going after the market for the intersection of 'wealthy + want small phone'... which might be a very small market and not worth pursuing.
derbOac 4y ago
I don't know. I'm one of these people who wants a smaller phone. Not tiny but definitely wanted a smaller one. I know a couple of people who feel the same, bought an iPhone mini, and when I was looking for my last phone came across reviews specifically targeting this issue. I don't use iPhones so don't really know very much, but my instinct is that it falls into this bundling fallacy about product characteristics (there might be another term for it; I don't know). It goes something like this: Companies X, Y, and Z all market products with unusual characteristic A. But there's all sorts of other things about it that make it undesirable or less desirable, so the consumer is faced with trade-offs. In the context of choosing between desirable characteristic A, but also undesirable characteristics B and C, they choose another product because the cost of B and C is greater than the benefit of A. But then the companies all conclude "no one wants A" because they half-assed the product, not realizing that it wasn't A that was the problem, it was the B and C they released it with. I see this all the time. With clothing for example, they'll make a garment out of really nice material A, but then release it with this weird design that doesn't really appeal to anyone except a stereotype. With tech I've noticed that they don't really make it available at all sometimes. So there might be product X, but you can't really find it anywhere. With a phone, hypothetically, it might be "my phone broke this morning and I need one ASAP and all the brick and mortar shops around me only carry these specific things and not the iPhone mini." Anyway, I don't know the iPhone mini from anything, but the bundling fallacy is so prevalent in these situations I'm skeptical. I know I faced this a bit when buying my last Android phone: the next smaller down, which I preferred based on size, and which wasn't even "small", wasn't that much smaller but also had other downsides. Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes intentionally sabotage experimental products just not to deal with the headache of supporting more options in their supply chain. Also, sometimes there are things that don't sell to a huge market, but do sell, and have a very devoted following. Smaller phones might be like that. In my experience sometimes these "devoted markets" sometimes expand into larger ones later (for example, everyone realizes 3 years from now they can't fit their phones in their pockets anymore and that it doesn't matter if they have a nice big phone to move their fingers around on if they have no place to put it).
- qwertfisch 4y ago
  > Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes intentionally sabotage experimental products just not to deal with the headache of supporting more options in their supply chain. Except companies like Samsung throw out dozens of new models per year, which all differentiate only marginally, and none of them gets a SFF while maintaining higher quality of features (i.e. no cheap phone with 720 display and such). Sometimes they get it right, like with the Samsung A40 from 2019, only to not pursue the sales for a true successor. Heck, me and a lot of my friends and relatives bought an A40 because of its size and fantastic display.
Archelaos 4y ago
> “oh phones are too big I just want something simple”. That is a valid sentiment that I think is shared by basically no average consumer. For a lot of people, phones are their primary computing devices, so a big screen is nice there. Bigger phones allow for more battery capacity. My way of dealing with it is two phones. Besides my smartphone, I still use my more than ten-year-old Nokia when I do not want to take the big smartphone with me. Of course, it only has phone, SMS and a clock. But I usually do not need anything else when I go for a walk or meet up with friends. I just want to be reachable in case there is a problem. Its old battry still lasts quite a long time, and I have it switched off most of the time anyway. So I can go 7+ days without recharging.
- nsonha 4y ago
  Do you still use your phone as a phone? Because I personally stopped using the phone features long ago, and I suspected many are in the same basket. So even for a minimalist/backup device, it would still need to be a "smart" phone, for note taking, calendar sync and what not.
  - Archelaos 4y ago
    Yes, I am indeed primarily using phone and SMS for mobile communication. I have never been on Facebook or WhatsApp and generally do not like too much distraction. If I am in the mood to socialise with people, I call them, email them or suggest a joint activity, but typically from home. And as I have been working from home office (or camper-van) even pre-COVID, I am prefering my laptop for email, calendar, to-dos, Web-browsing, etc. I think this reduces the need to carry a smart phone around quite a lot, compared to many others. What could change that would be the availability of a smartphone that turns into a PC/laptop when connected to a docking station. I suspect that Microsoft is pursuing such a plan with the integration of Android into Windows 11. Let's see ...
Dunedan 4y ago
> Why would that form factor succeed in the Android space? Because it's not Apple selling them and Android smartphone manufacturers operate with much lower margins. Take Motorola for example, which isn't even one of the 10 largest smartphone manufacturers. They released ~30 different smartphone models in the past year alone, so they apparently make money, even if they don't sell millions of units per model. Yet none of the models released in the past year has a height shorter than 159mm or a weight lighter than 155g. I believe the reason why no smartphone manufacturer offers small phones anymore is not because they want to, but rather because there is some non-obvious reason why they can't. My personal theory is because it's difficult to get proper display panels for smaller phones nowadays. The fabs producing the panels switched to larger sizes due to demand and efficiency, which resulted in no smaller panels with up-to-date specs (high-refresh rate, HDR, low power consumption, ...) to be available. I'd appreciate if somebody could proof me wrong, as that'd be quite a bummer otherwise.
- ece 4y ago
  I think this is the main reason, and why only Apple can afford to make a small slab phone. They can still make some margin with 5% of a massive number, while others can't make any. Foldables seem like a better compromise here, and hopefully more like the zflip/razr get in this $700-800 range with stock android, good cameras, and decent battery life. The zflip 3 has been sold for $800, just give me stock android and I'd be a buyer. I'd be ok with a slightly slower processor if it means a better battery life, but within 10-20% of a flagship. Between a $450 6.1 inch Pixel 6a, or a $700-800 folding phone, it's going to be kind of tough to compete with a smaller slab phone if it's going to have to make more compromises to stay small. I'd love a Nexus 4 sized phone again, but these aren't bad options, if you want small, go folding, or get a 6a. I'm sure the mini is a good option if you're ok with iOS.
  - dont__panic 4y ago
    Foldables are a crappy solution. I do not want a tablet. I have no desire to watch videos on my phone, and I don't need a huge screen for any of the things I do on my phone regularly -- text, listen to music, occasionally browse HN and reddit, take photos. I understand that they fold up to essentially become weird-aspect ratio very thick phones... but that's not desirable for me either, especially at the foldable price point of ~$1000+.
masklinn 4y ago
There are two big issues with SFF, really: - people tend to correlate size and price, and by default the correlation is direct (for some things it's inverse), so at similar capabilities (and thus prices) consumers will tend to go with the larger version - for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct relationship between battery size and device size, and battery life is a really valuable convenience The iPhone 13 mini has a 2400 mAh battery, the 13 has 3200. 33% more battery capacity is a lot, and at 2400mAh I don't think the mini doesn't survive an entire day of relatively heavy use without a charge.
- Dunedan 4y ago
  > for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct relationship between battery size and device size, and battery life is a really valuable convenience As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the same runtime in a smaller phone. Also by increasing the depth of the smartphone by just 1-2 millimeters you can offset the smaller area available for the battery.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the same runtime in a smaller phone. The battery capacity grows much faster than the display energy consumption, and it's not even a fight: at otherwise equivalent hardware, the larger phone has always had better battery life than the smaller one in every iPhone generation. The minis both suffered significant criticism due to battery life issues, compared to their larger sibling. > Also by increasing the depth of the smartphone by just 1-2 millimeters you can offset the smaller area available for the battery. You can do the same on both smaller and larger form factors so that's not an advantage of the SFF phones. And much to my dismay Apple remains very much not a fan of that: after having increased the phone depth to long-forgotten heights of 8.3mm (a chonk not seen since the 4S's 9.3), it's been reduced back down to 7.65 in the 13 (up a hair from the 12's 7.4). I fear an eventual return to the dark days of the 6S/7 and their 7.1mm you could shave with (but couldn't pick your phone off of the table for lack of ability to grip the thing without using your fingernails to pry it off).
michaelt 4y ago
> So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow seller. Well, it's up against the iPhone SE, which has the same size, same weight and the same processor. [1] [1] https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13mini,iphoneSE3rdgen https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13m...
- porcc 4y ago
  Not the same size, the comparisons are misleading as both those phones look small compared to the 13 max. The SE has a form factor that matches many Android phones, small-phoners (like me) want to go smaller than that if possible. https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-12-mini,Apple-iPhone-SE,Apple-iPhone-SE-2022/phones/11333,10001,11828 https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-12-mini,... I had the previous SE from years back and it's still my preferred size, the current mini is significantly bigger than it. As an aside, I had to switch to the 12 mini as the old SE started becoming unusable due to its age. I did switch to a Pixel 4a temporarily but that was too big for what I wanted and traded it in as soon as I could.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
Similarly, the F150 is the best selling vehicle in the US. #2 is the Silverado, and #3 is the Dodge Ram. Clearly, this whole 'sedan' concept is a failed form factor, every manufacturer should only make pickup trucks. Why shoot for less than the #1 market spot?
- InvaderFizz 4y ago
  Ford has phased out sedans[0] for the US market and are instead chasing higher margin trucks and SUVs. The exception is the Mustang. 0: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-stopped-selling-sedans/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-s...
- gs17 4y ago
  Isn't that sort of what Ford decided (except they also still make SUVs)? AFAIK, they stopped making sedans for most markets.
- E4YomzYIN5YEBKe 4y ago
  Side note, It is just RAM now and not Dodge Ram. RAM is a brand under Stellantis just like Dodge, Citroën, or JEEP.
- dont__panic 4y ago
  Funnily, cars suffer from this same exact issue, but worse! Just like expanding phone screen size leads to suboptimal software on small screen sizes that devs don't target any more... expanding car size leads to safety compromises for sedans. If my 2000s Civic gets T-boned by a 2022 F150, I'll probably die, simply because the 2022 F150 will crush my car like a tank rolling over a tin can. When I try to drive around in my sedan at night, I'm constantly blinded because truck manufacturers don't account for low seat heights any more with beam cutoffs. Who would buy a sedan any more when you're screwed over this way? With phones and vehicles, we're stuck in this prisoner's dilemma situation where larger sizes lead to less desirability of small sizes, and the cycle repeats over and over again. Same thing happens with public transit/car usage -- as more people use cars, public transit thins out, deals with more traffic on the roads, and becomes scarier because there are fewer "normal" people on public transit to make you feel safe from crime. Curious if there's an research on how to escape from this kind of death spiral -- my suspicion is that the only real way out is regulation, because otherwise there's no way to overcome the self-reinforcing impact of these decisions.
mrweasel 4y ago
If you hadn't included the link to Macrumors, I'd have guess that the mini sells poorly because the iPhone SE is available and much cheaper. Personally I really surprised that the SE doesn't sell more.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Anecdotally, I wanted a Mini, but the lack of top-end cameras being available made me hesitant. I ended up buying a SE, since the neither phone was exactly what I wanted, but the SE was so much cheaper.
jazzyjackson 4y ago
it's a sort of selection bias, it's only because of a niche unmet need that people take to their blogs to complain - so the only people clamoring are the one not getting what they want same way the universe is perfectly made for us because if it wasn't we wouldn't be here, ya'know ? - Sent from my iPhone 13 mini
UI_at_80x24 4y ago
I agree with you 100% I am knocking on 50 years of age, but I have the eyes of an 80 year old! I'd LOVE to be able to use a 9" tablet as my primary phone. I have a plethora of screens available to me, including a PC as my primary computing device; but when I'm on the go I need a _larger_ screen not a smaller one.
andjd 4y ago
> So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow seller. This narrative is cited a lot, and fueled rumors that Apple would kill the mini for iPhone 13. They didn't. So clearly it's profitable enough for them even though it's a comparatively low-volume product. I think the issue with small form factor on Android is whether too many apps will have broken UI on such a small screen. Software support has been the issue with other innovative android phones, such as the LG Wing and even the original Samsung Fold.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  > fueled rumors that Apple would kill the mini for iPhone 13. They didn't. Apple plans pretty far ahead and moves slowly. When a phone goes on sale (like the iPhone 12 mini) the successor is already pretty far along in the pipeline, and I think it's unlikely they would cancel the successor based on a few weeks of sales data. They would at least wait until after christmas, at which point the 13 mini was probably already almost ready, at which point it probably doesn't make sense to cancel it anymore. So if Apple nixes a product because it lacks demand, I would expect that to be after two years of sales. The decision might have been made already after the first year of iPhone 12 mini, but the decision would not affect the iPhone 13 lineup, only the iPhone 14 lineup. You could see this slow product cycle when Apple failed to jump on the big phone trend. When the iPhone 5 came out, they underestimated the market for huge phones, and it took them two years to course correct and jump on the phablet bandwagon with the 6/6+. (And they had a phantastic quarter when they did since everyone has been waiting for a big iPhone for two years)
Kon-Peki 4y ago
I have the 13 Mini. Multiple people have asked me what it was and then commented that they wish they knew about it when they got their current phone. I think sales are probably limited significantly by the marketing plan of both Apple and the carriers that sell phones - I'm sure that the larger phones are more profitable.
- krony 4y ago
  Agreed. I love my 12 Mini, and my SE's before that. I'm also anti-case so the phone looks extra small compared to most. Fun to have someone take our photo with the phone, cause they always ask how ancient it is and are shocked to hear it is newer than the phone they have! Non-existent marketing doesn't help
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  When I bought the 13 Mini, it wasn’t even an option on their /iphone landing page. I only saw it when I clicked into the store. Edit: Yup, it’s nowhere to be seen on apple.com homepage. They don’t push it at all.
prof_hibschman 4y ago
Apple never releases a "pro" mini -- with the same camera/processor as the larger variants. Thinking back, the iPhone 5s was near the perfect size for my pockets. These days I find myself leaving my phone more and more, only taking it when I probably need a camera.
igreulich 4y ago
I buy the best camera an iPhone will give me. If that same camera in the Pro Max was in the Mini I would have bough that. The iPhone 5 was the perfect size, and I miss that form factor. But The camera is what sells me the device.
hindsightbias 4y ago
It's hard to tell from the colors, but if you take the 8, the two SE models, the 12 & 13 minis that's closer to 15%. Those models are are about the same size.
conradev 4y ago
SUVs and trucks getting bigger over the time is a direct result of regulation: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-co...
NoPicklez 4y ago
I like to use the story of one of my parents. Big tall guy, never used technology, big fingers and always complained buttons were too small etc etc. Now the guy loves his big iPad and his iPhone that he wouldn't go any size smaller because he'd struggle to see what's on the screen. The only challenge he has now is he likes the bigger phone, but struggles to keep it in his pockets when working, when you add in a protective cover. People don't often know what they want, they're just driven by what they've had and whether they think it has worked for them, which most people can justify their own decision. I do think however, that there will become a point where phones simply are too big. I'm just not sure how far off we are from that.
aylmao 4y ago
Worth point out; per the chart on the linked article it seems like the iPhone 12 Mini sold about as well as the iPhone 13 Mini, if I'm reading the colors correctly.
aiisjustanif 4y ago
> I know that’s simplistic and a little condescending, but then look at SUV and truck sales. I knew the response sounded American, then this clarified it. I’d like to see the sale of phone sizes by country.
usrn 4y ago
This is the problem with mobile stuff. It's always "one size fits all" and "fuck you if it doesn't work for you, too bad." I'm so tired of it I've just given up on normal smartphones. There's really nothing they add to your life when you look closely. I have a flip phone running "kai OS" now (which is actually pretty neat but I don't bother with a data plan) and a Linux PDA. I don't miss owning a smartphone at all, they're terrible.
hedora 4y ago
From looking at other sites, the SE greatly outsells the mini (22M in 2020, projected 30M in 2022). It is typically Apple's #2 seller. If you add that in with the mini numbers, then it tells a different story. Also, during the pandemic, faceid didn't work in public. People looking for a small phone had to choose between a more expensive model with more cameras and cheaper phone with working biometric authentication. That skews all sorts of market share stats. Anyway, annual sales by model (the SEs are usually released at a different time of year) would make for a more meaningful comparison than calendar Q1 sales starting after Christmas and ending a few weeks after the SE launch.

gjsman-1000 4y ago

Another under-mentioned reason is that iPhones have more efficient processors that generate less heat, and also need less RAM to perform equivalently. Whereas, fitting a top-line Snapdragon into a small phone is a challenge. There’s a reason why top-tier phones have copper heatpipes, vapor chambers, and so on. All things no iPhone has or needs. You could still do a small Android phone, but you might have to abandon the idea of including a Snapdragon 8.

erohead 4y ago

I touch on this on the site. 5% of iPhones sold are minis. That's 10m sold per year! That is more than enough demand to cover the NREs and costs of making a phone. * https://9to5mac.com/2022/04/21/cirp-iphone-13-best-selling-lineup-in-recent-years-despite-tiny-interest-in-iphone-mini/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/04/21/cirp-iphone-13-best-selling-l...

DANK_YACHT 4y ago
5% seems quite small and not worth the trouble. It might be worth it if a small phone generated 5% in additional sales, but most people buying a small iPhone would likely buy a normal-sized iPhone if no small version was available rather than making the switch to Android.
- blairbeckwith 4y ago
  The point is that 5% (or 10m phones) does not make sense for Apple to continue to build, but that has no relation to whether it's worth it to another company.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  5% of 100 phones is 5 phones. 5% of 200,000,000 is 10,000,000. 5% can be a huge number, or a tiny number, depending on what it's 5% of. I switched from Android to Apple specifically for the iPhone mini, and if they killed it, I would switch to the smallest phone on the market.
  - DANK_YACHT 4y ago
    My point is that 5% is probably an irrelevant number because it’s not 5% additional sales. If the mini wasn’t available, many people would get a normal iPhone instead of switch to Android. So the net sales is closer to 0. Apple seems to agree with this sentiment and there will be no mini starting with the iPhone 14: https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/14/exclusive-iphone-14-coming-in-four-models-without-mini-version-pro-models-with-taller-screen-satellite-features-still-coming/amp/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/14/exclusive-iphone-14-coming-in... Good luck with your switch.
    - criddell 4y ago
      That's why I picked up an iPhone 13 Mini. It's a really great phone and when I need a new phone six years from now, I'm hoping there's something as good to replace it.
    - nostromo 4y ago
      Phone sales aren’t driven by switching, and haven’t been for a while, they’re about upgrading. Apple knows this better than anyone. For example: I upgrade my phone every two years or so, so long as I like the new phones. If I don’t like the new phones, I wait as long as possible. People that like smaller phones won’t necessarily leave the iPhone if they kill the Mini - they will just keep their current phones for as long as possible. And that can indeed hurt sales, even if Apple doesn’t lose market share.
moonchrome 4y ago
>That is more than enough demand to cover the NREs and costs of making a phone. Then why is Apple dropping it ?
- jazzyjackson 4y ago
  because covering costs is not the same as maximizing profit
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
  I half suspect that Apple will be coming back with another small phone a few years down the line and then a cycle will continue where they will always have something like an SE or mini, but it won't ever be flagship level.
  - dylan-m 4y ago
    I feel like that has been the problem with the Mini. I love mine (which I got because I was fed up with Pixel and Android in general), but I know I only have it because I got in at the right time. My wife bought an iPhone at the wrong time and hers is comically large. She would have happily bought an iPhone Mini if it had been available that year. By the time she needs a new iPhone, it will be another year where the only options are gigantic.
microtonal 4y ago
Agreed. I hope the rumors are false and that they'll continue to make the Mini. However, 5% does not mean much if market research proves that those people would buy a regular iPhone anyway if they drop the Mini. I think there is also some competition with the iPhone SE. Even though the Mini is not intended to be a budget phone, it is 100 Euro cheaper than the non-mini. So, I can imagine a chunk of people would buy it for its lower price if the iPhone SE didn't exist. Even more if you consider that the Mini actually has a larger screen than the SE.
- d3nj4l 4y ago
  It's as good as guaranteed that the mini won't be returning this year - dummy models of the upcoming line which are used to size cases have made their way to the usual leakers, and even before that the front panels of the line were leaked. No mini, unfortunately :/
  - rekoil 4y ago
    That said, Apple does tend to keep their designs for a fair while, so it's possible there will be one next year, or that it will become the new SE at some point. I really really want a Pro Mini :(
    - Bud 4y ago
      You won't get one, unfortunately, both because there's no motivation for Apple to make it, and because battery life would be an insurmountable issue, at least with current tech. The battery life in the Mini is already significantly inferior to the other iPhones in the line; Apple's only going to be willing to push that so far before it's an obviously-compromised product and they would just refuse to ship it.
  - hbn 4y ago
    I'd be fine if they made it a biennial release. I don't need to upgrade my phone more than that anyway. I feel like my plan right now is to hope with the iPhone 14 launch, the 13 mini will continue to be sold with a price drop, and then I'll upgrade my 12 mini to the 13 mini and get the battery improvement. I love the size of this phone and hope I'm never forced back to the gigantic "normal-sized" phones that we've gotten stuck with the past decade.
achow 4y ago
Hold on; the math is not that easy. For one - most of the iPhone Mini sale is because of 'Halo effect', die hard fans who anyway would have bought an iPhone, bought the mini version. An Android phone maker will not have that brand pull or halo effect to establish a new category, so it would be no where near that 10M number. Second, iPhone or Mac devices are known for hardware and software integration. That translates among other things to good battery life (similar to RAM. Apple never talks about RAM). iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department [1], one of the factor in its low sale as compared to bigger device. A Mini Android device will have mini batteries, that means it will have no chance in h* to last through the day - the minimum requirement in this day and age. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/apple-iphone-13-mini-review-camera-performance#:~:text=The%20battery%20doesn't%20last,for%20a%20phone%20this%20small https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/apple-iph....
- minusf 4y ago
  > iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department might have been true for mini 12, but mini 13 has amazing battery life, certainly nothing like 2020 SE which is truly abysmal.
- elorant 4y ago
  If you’re a diehard fan why would you buy a subpar phone, and not the latest flagship? Smaller phones imply less usage because some things aren’t as pleasant as on a bigger screen.
  - buildsjets 4y ago
    I guess I am a diehard fan of only small iPhones, as since 2007 my lineup has been: iPhone 3, iPhone 3Gs, iPhone 4, iPhone 5, iPhone SE, and currently 12 Mini. As far as I am concerned, the mini IS the flagship. I would never even consider buying one of the larger models, as I consider them to be subpar, unpleasant devices to carry and to use. I'd choose to carry no phone over having to carry a full-sized phone, they have become too large to be considered conveniently portable. For me, the perfect smart phone would be the same size and shape as a credit card, edge-to-edge screen on all sides, and approximately 3mm thick. And it would run iOS of course.
cercatrova 4y ago
But you're not Apple though.

Beltalowda 4y ago

The numbers on that site are a bit vague and I'm having a hard time making out the chart due to the colours, but they still sold millions of iPhone 13 Minis, right? Plus, you should probably add up the mini + SE as well for "small(-ish) phone demand". I think you can make a profitable niche selling smaller phones. Most people don't want a 12" laptop either as they consider it too small, but some people do and various companies still make a profit designing and selling them. I don't quite understand why it's so different for phones.

duxup 4y ago

Hopefully they just go to an every other year selling cycle on the mini or something like that.

hn_throwaway_69 4y ago

>people just like big stuff I'm inclined to think that applies more to Americans than people generally. Europeans and Australians can be quite content with smaller vehicles, smaller properties, and quite frankly smaller lifestyles.

iforgotpassword 4y ago
But admittedly here in Germany SUVs are also on the rise, even though we have that "environmentally conscious" reputation.
- 0des 4y ago
  Yall are the home of VW right?
- hef19898 4y ago
  And those SUVs still are relatively small compared to US-style pick-ups.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hn_throwaway_69 4y ago
  Admittedly also on the rise in Australia, but they're nowhere near the size of pickup trucks that occupy American highways.
- Etheryte 4y ago
  I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk of Germans as environmentally conscious. Car culture is usually one of the first things that comes up when someone talks about Germany.
  - iforgotpassword 4y ago
    Sure car culture is big, but does that mean people like big cars? Also curious where you're from that you never heard of this.

bloqs 4y ago

Every female member of my family has complained about devices being too big. Its clearly based on anecdotal evidence. People with smaller hands want to be able to operate the phone fully with one hand.

d00k 4y ago
Don't see the same with my family, girlfriend has a 13 Pro Max, mum and sister have the 11 Pro Max.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  From what I have seen. The average person would rather two hand their phone than have a smaller one.
jwagenet 4y ago
My girlfriend liked the mini, but didn’t get it partially because it doesn’t feature the 3 cameras. As long as the mini is positioned as a down brand phone, even for technical reasons, some of the interested market is excluded
- rtkwe 4y ago
  There's just not enough space for all the random features people want in a small form factor phone and keep it thin-ish. The Pro Max camera group alone is 1/5-1/4 of the back real estate on the 12 mini.
- skavi 4y ago
  One thing I don’t think people appreciate is just how impressively compact the Minis are. Every bit of space is used up. I doubt any Android OEM (with the exception of maybe Samsung) could get make a comparable device. Unless they used something akin to a laptop webcam, there simply isn’t enough space for a third camera.
reaperducer 4y ago
Every female member of my family has complained about devices being too big. My wife's solution to iPhones being too big was to upgrade all of her handbags and to buy flouncy dresses with pockets. Wanna trade families? Please?

dkackman11 4y ago

I am saddened to hear that there will be no iPhone 14 mini. I have the 12 mini and like the author do not want a huge phone.

izacus 4y ago

These "slow iPhone 13 mini" sales are more than all Google Pixel phones sold in a year. Think about that. I don't understand when did the ability to choose a product fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews and modern American perception. Why is being able to buy niche products somehow not a worthy thing to be desired?

reaperducer 4y ago
I don't understand when did the ability to choose a product fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews Because so many on HN have been indoctrinated into the "scale at all costs" mentality. It demonstrates the difference between HN and the real world. On HN, if you can't serve a billion people, your product is niche. In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice living making niche products. It's why so many people on HN don't understand Panic, or its PlayDate. They don't understand artisan anything. They've forgotten the whole hipster movement, which still exists in pockets of the world. They can't grok that there are companies that have been in business for hundreds of years making products one at a time — by hand. "X doesn't scale" is HN for "I know nothing about how the world works."
- cortesoft 4y ago
  > In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice living making niche products. But rarely something as expensive to create as a smart phone.
  - izacus 4y ago
    Really? Because things like cabriolet cars, speciality cars, high-end audio equipment, luxury furniture and many others exist. If anything, mobile phone market is exceedingly horrible because of consolidation into a single product with not much choice.
    - cortesoft 4y ago
      Maybe we could have a market for very high end phones that cost $3000, but I haven't seen anyone try to fill that niche yet. Maybe it isn't there? Even if it was there, that doesn't mean the phone would be small. People who want small phones aren't necessarily wealthy, so they would only be going after the market for the intersection of 'wealthy + want small phone'... which might be a very small market and not worth pursuing.

derbOac 4y ago

I don't know. I'm one of these people who wants a smaller phone. Not tiny but definitely wanted a smaller one. I know a couple of people who feel the same, bought an iPhone mini, and when I was looking for my last phone came across reviews specifically targeting this issue. I don't use iPhones so don't really know very much, but my instinct is that it falls into this bundling fallacy about product characteristics (there might be another term for it; I don't know). It goes something like this: Companies X, Y, and Z all market products with unusual characteristic A. But there's all sorts of other things about it that make it undesirable or less desirable, so the consumer is faced with trade-offs. In the context of choosing between desirable characteristic A, but also undesirable characteristics B and C, they choose another product because the cost of B and C is greater than the benefit of A. But then the companies all conclude "no one wants A" because they half-assed the product, not realizing that it wasn't A that was the problem, it was the B and C they released it with. I see this all the time. With clothing for example, they'll make a garment out of really nice material A, but then release it with this weird design that doesn't really appeal to anyone except a stereotype. With tech I've noticed that they don't really make it available at all sometimes. So there might be product X, but you can't really find it anywhere. With a phone, hypothetically, it might be "my phone broke this morning and I need one ASAP and all the brick and mortar shops around me only carry these specific things and not the iPhone mini." Anyway, I don't know the iPhone mini from anything, but the bundling fallacy is so prevalent in these situations I'm skeptical. I know I faced this a bit when buying my last Android phone: the next smaller down, which I preferred based on size, and which wasn't even "small", wasn't that much smaller but also had other downsides. Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes intentionally sabotage experimental products just not to deal with the headache of supporting more options in their supply chain. Also, sometimes there are things that don't sell to a huge market, but do sell, and have a very devoted following. Smaller phones might be like that. In my experience sometimes these "devoted markets" sometimes expand into larger ones later (for example, everyone realizes 3 years from now they can't fit their phones in their pockets anymore and that it doesn't matter if they have a nice big phone to move their fingers around on if they have no place to put it).

qwertfisch 4y ago
> Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes intentionally sabotage experimental products just not to deal with the headache of supporting more options in their supply chain. Except companies like Samsung throw out dozens of new models per year, which all differentiate only marginally, and none of them gets a SFF while maintaining higher quality of features (i.e. no cheap phone with 720 display and such). Sometimes they get it right, like with the Samsung A40 from 2019, only to not pursue the sales for a true successor. Heck, me and a lot of my friends and relatives bought an A40 because of its size and fantastic display.

Archelaos 4y ago

> “oh phones are too big I just want something simple”. That is a valid sentiment that I think is shared by basically no average consumer. For a lot of people, phones are their primary computing devices, so a big screen is nice there. Bigger phones allow for more battery capacity. My way of dealing with it is two phones. Besides my smartphone, I still use my more than ten-year-old Nokia when I do not want to take the big smartphone with me. Of course, it only has phone, SMS and a clock. But I usually do not need anything else when I go for a walk or meet up with friends. I just want to be reachable in case there is a problem. Its old battry still lasts quite a long time, and I have it switched off most of the time anyway. So I can go 7+ days without recharging.

nsonha 4y ago
Do you still use your phone as a phone? Because I personally stopped using the phone features long ago, and I suspected many are in the same basket. So even for a minimalist/backup device, it would still need to be a "smart" phone, for note taking, calendar sync and what not.
- Archelaos 4y ago
  Yes, I am indeed primarily using phone and SMS for mobile communication. I have never been on Facebook or WhatsApp and generally do not like too much distraction. If I am in the mood to socialise with people, I call them, email them or suggest a joint activity, but typically from home. And as I have been working from home office (or camper-van) even pre-COVID, I am prefering my laptop for email, calendar, to-dos, Web-browsing, etc. I think this reduces the need to carry a smart phone around quite a lot, compared to many others. What could change that would be the availability of a smartphone that turns into a PC/laptop when connected to a docking station. I suspect that Microsoft is pursuing such a plan with the integration of Android into Windows 11. Let's see ...

Dunedan 4y ago

> Why would that form factor succeed in the Android space? Because it's not Apple selling them and Android smartphone manufacturers operate with much lower margins. Take Motorola for example, which isn't even one of the 10 largest smartphone manufacturers. They released ~30 different smartphone models in the past year alone, so they apparently make money, even if they don't sell millions of units per model. Yet none of the models released in the past year has a height shorter than 159mm or a weight lighter than 155g. I believe the reason why no smartphone manufacturer offers small phones anymore is not because they want to, but rather because there is some non-obvious reason why they can't. My personal theory is because it's difficult to get proper display panels for smaller phones nowadays. The fabs producing the panels switched to larger sizes due to demand and efficiency, which resulted in no smaller panels with up-to-date specs (high-refresh rate, HDR, low power consumption, ...) to be available. I'd appreciate if somebody could proof me wrong, as that'd be quite a bummer otherwise.

ece 4y ago
I think this is the main reason, and why only Apple can afford to make a small slab phone. They can still make some margin with 5% of a massive number, while others can't make any. Foldables seem like a better compromise here, and hopefully more like the zflip/razr get in this $700-800 range with stock android, good cameras, and decent battery life. The zflip 3 has been sold for $800, just give me stock android and I'd be a buyer. I'd be ok with a slightly slower processor if it means a better battery life, but within 10-20% of a flagship. Between a $450 6.1 inch Pixel 6a, or a $700-800 folding phone, it's going to be kind of tough to compete with a smaller slab phone if it's going to have to make more compromises to stay small. I'd love a Nexus 4 sized phone again, but these aren't bad options, if you want small, go folding, or get a 6a. I'm sure the mini is a good option if you're ok with iOS.
- dont__panic 4y ago
  Foldables are a crappy solution. I do not want a tablet. I have no desire to watch videos on my phone, and I don't need a huge screen for any of the things I do on my phone regularly -- text, listen to music, occasionally browse HN and reddit, take photos. I understand that they fold up to essentially become weird-aspect ratio very thick phones... but that's not desirable for me either, especially at the foldable price point of ~$1000+.

masklinn 4y ago

There are two big issues with SFF, really: - people tend to correlate size and price, and by default the correlation is direct (for some things it's inverse), so at similar capabilities (and thus prices) consumers will tend to go with the larger version - for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct relationship between battery size and device size, and battery life is a really valuable convenience The iPhone 13 mini has a 2400 mAh battery, the 13 has 3200. 33% more battery capacity is a lot, and at 2400mAh I don't think the mini doesn't survive an entire day of relatively heavy use without a charge.

Dunedan 4y ago
> for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct relationship between battery size and device size, and battery life is a really valuable convenience As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the same runtime in a smaller phone. Also by increasing the depth of the smartphone by just 1-2 millimeters you can offset the smaller area available for the battery.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the same runtime in a smaller phone. The battery capacity grows much faster than the display energy consumption, and it's not even a fight: at otherwise equivalent hardware, the larger phone has always had better battery life than the smaller one in every iPhone generation. The minis both suffered significant criticism due to battery life issues, compared to their larger sibling. > Also by increasing the depth of the smartphone by just 1-2 millimeters you can offset the smaller area available for the battery. You can do the same on both smaller and larger form factors so that's not an advantage of the SFF phones. And much to my dismay Apple remains very much not a fan of that: after having increased the phone depth to long-forgotten heights of 8.3mm (a chonk not seen since the 4S's 9.3), it's been reduced back down to 7.65 in the 13 (up a hair from the 12's 7.4). I fear an eventual return to the dark days of the 6S/7 and their 7.1mm you could shave with (but couldn't pick your phone off of the table for lack of ability to grip the thing without using your fingernails to pry it off).

michaelt 4y ago

> So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow seller. Well, it's up against the iPhone SE, which has the same size, same weight and the same processor. [1] [1] https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13mini,iphoneSE3rdgen https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13m...

porcc 4y ago
Not the same size, the comparisons are misleading as both those phones look small compared to the 13 max. The SE has a form factor that matches many Android phones, small-phoners (like me) want to go smaller than that if possible. https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-12-mini,Apple-iPhone-SE,Apple-iPhone-SE-2022/phones/11333,10001,11828 https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple-iPhone-12-mini,... I had the previous SE from years back and it's still my preferred size, the current mini is significantly bigger than it. As an aside, I had to switch to the 12 mini as the old SE started becoming unusable due to its age. I did switch to a Pixel 4a temporarily but that was too big for what I wanted and traded it in as soon as I could.

LeifCarrotson 4y ago

Similarly, the F150 is the best selling vehicle in the US. #2 is the Silverado, and #3 is the Dodge Ram. Clearly, this whole 'sedan' concept is a failed form factor, every manufacturer should only make pickup trucks. Why shoot for less than the #1 market spot?

InvaderFizz 4y ago
Ford has phased out sedans[0] for the US market and are instead chasing higher margin trucks and SUVs. The exception is the Mustang. 0: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-stopped-selling-sedans/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why-it-s...
gs17 4y ago
Isn't that sort of what Ford decided (except they also still make SUVs)? AFAIK, they stopped making sedans for most markets.
E4YomzYIN5YEBKe 4y ago
Side note, It is just RAM now and not Dodge Ram. RAM is a brand under Stellantis just like Dodge, Citroën, or JEEP.
dont__panic 4y ago
Funnily, cars suffer from this same exact issue, but worse! Just like expanding phone screen size leads to suboptimal software on small screen sizes that devs don't target any more... expanding car size leads to safety compromises for sedans. If my 2000s Civic gets T-boned by a 2022 F150, I'll probably die, simply because the 2022 F150 will crush my car like a tank rolling over a tin can. When I try to drive around in my sedan at night, I'm constantly blinded because truck manufacturers don't account for low seat heights any more with beam cutoffs. Who would buy a sedan any more when you're screwed over this way? With phones and vehicles, we're stuck in this prisoner's dilemma situation where larger sizes lead to less desirability of small sizes, and the cycle repeats over and over again. Same thing happens with public transit/car usage -- as more people use cars, public transit thins out, deals with more traffic on the roads, and becomes scarier because there are fewer "normal" people on public transit to make you feel safe from crime. Curious if there's an research on how to escape from this kind of death spiral -- my suspicion is that the only real way out is regulation, because otherwise there's no way to overcome the self-reinforcing impact of these decisions.

mrweasel 4y ago

If you hadn't included the link to Macrumors, I'd have guess that the mini sells poorly because the iPhone SE is available and much cheaper. Personally I really surprised that the SE doesn't sell more.

ajmurmann 4y ago
Anecdotally, I wanted a Mini, but the lack of top-end cameras being available made me hesitant. I ended up buying a SE, since the neither phone was exactly what I wanted, but the SE was so much cheaper.

jazzyjackson 4y ago

it's a sort of selection bias, it's only because of a niche unmet need that people take to their blogs to complain - so the only people clamoring are the one not getting what they want same way the universe is perfectly made for us because if it wasn't we wouldn't be here, ya'know ? - Sent from my iPhone 13 mini

UI_at_80x24 4y ago

I agree with you 100% I am knocking on 50 years of age, but I have the eyes of an 80 year old! I'd LOVE to be able to use a 9" tablet as my primary phone. I have a plethora of screens available to me, including a PC as my primary computing device; but when I'm on the go I need a _larger_ screen not a smaller one.

andjd 4y ago

> So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow seller. This narrative is cited a lot, and fueled rumors that Apple would kill the mini for iPhone 13. They didn't. So clearly it's profitable enough for them even though it's a comparatively low-volume product. I think the issue with small form factor on Android is whether too many apps will have broken UI on such a small screen. Software support has been the issue with other innovative android phones, such as the LG Wing and even the original Samsung Fold.

newaccount74 4y ago
> fueled rumors that Apple would kill the mini for iPhone 13. They didn't. Apple plans pretty far ahead and moves slowly. When a phone goes on sale (like the iPhone 12 mini) the successor is already pretty far along in the pipeline, and I think it's unlikely they would cancel the successor based on a few weeks of sales data. They would at least wait until after christmas, at which point the 13 mini was probably already almost ready, at which point it probably doesn't make sense to cancel it anymore. So if Apple nixes a product because it lacks demand, I would expect that to be after two years of sales. The decision might have been made already after the first year of iPhone 12 mini, but the decision would not affect the iPhone 13 lineup, only the iPhone 14 lineup. You could see this slow product cycle when Apple failed to jump on the big phone trend. When the iPhone 5 came out, they underestimated the market for huge phones, and it took them two years to course correct and jump on the phablet bandwagon with the 6/6+. (And they had a phantastic quarter when they did since everyone has been waiting for a big iPhone for two years)

Kon-Peki 4y ago

I have the 13 Mini. Multiple people have asked me what it was and then commented that they wish they knew about it when they got their current phone. I think sales are probably limited significantly by the marketing plan of both Apple and the carriers that sell phones - I'm sure that the larger phones are more profitable.

krony 4y ago
Agreed. I love my 12 Mini, and my SE's before that. I'm also anti-case so the phone looks extra small compared to most. Fun to have someone take our photo with the phone, cause they always ask how ancient it is and are shocked to hear it is newer than the phone they have! Non-existent marketing doesn't help
hombre_fatal 4y ago
When I bought the 13 Mini, it wasn’t even an option on their /iphone landing page. I only saw it when I clicked into the store. Edit: Yup, it’s nowhere to be seen on apple.com homepage. They don’t push it at all.

prof_hibschman 4y ago

Apple never releases a "pro" mini -- with the same camera/processor as the larger variants. Thinking back, the iPhone 5s was near the perfect size for my pockets. These days I find myself leaving my phone more and more, only taking it when I probably need a camera.

igreulich 4y ago

I buy the best camera an iPhone will give me. If that same camera in the Pro Max was in the Mini I would have bough that. The iPhone 5 was the perfect size, and I miss that form factor. But The camera is what sells me the device.

hindsightbias 4y ago

It's hard to tell from the colors, but if you take the 8, the two SE models, the 12 & 13 minis that's closer to 15%. Those models are are about the same size.

conradev 4y ago

SUVs and trucks getting bigger over the time is a direct result of regulation: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-co...

NoPicklez 4y ago

I like to use the story of one of my parents. Big tall guy, never used technology, big fingers and always complained buttons were too small etc etc. Now the guy loves his big iPad and his iPhone that he wouldn't go any size smaller because he'd struggle to see what's on the screen. The only challenge he has now is he likes the bigger phone, but struggles to keep it in his pockets when working, when you add in a protective cover. People don't often know what they want, they're just driven by what they've had and whether they think it has worked for them, which most people can justify their own decision. I do think however, that there will become a point where phones simply are too big. I'm just not sure how far off we are from that.

aylmao 4y ago

Worth point out; per the chart on the linked article it seems like the iPhone 12 Mini sold about as well as the iPhone 13 Mini, if I'm reading the colors correctly.

aiisjustanif 4y ago

> I know that’s simplistic and a little condescending, but then look at SUV and truck sales. I knew the response sounded American, then this clarified it. I’d like to see the sale of phone sizes by country.

usrn 4y ago

This is the problem with mobile stuff. It's always "one size fits all" and "fuck you if it doesn't work for you, too bad." I'm so tired of it I've just given up on normal smartphones. There's really nothing they add to your life when you look closely. I have a flip phone running "kai OS" now (which is actually pretty neat but I don't bother with a data plan) and a Linux PDA. I don't miss owning a smartphone at all, they're terrible.

hedora 4y ago

From looking at other sites, the SE greatly outsells the mini (22M in 2020, projected 30M in 2022). It is typically Apple's #2 seller. If you add that in with the mini numbers, then it tells a different story. Also, during the pandemic, faceid didn't work in public. People looking for a small phone had to choose between a more expensive model with more cameras and cheaper phone with working biometric authentication. That skews all sorts of market share stats. Anyway, annual sales by model (the SEs are usually released at a different time of year) would make for a more meaningful comparison than calendar Q1 sales starting after Christmas and ending a few weeks after the SE launch.