5 ms·

Reusable bags for deliver are stupid if they don't get collected back into the system. Otherwise, you're just making more and more reusable containers that are

Reusable bags for deliver are stupid if they don't get collected back into the system. Otherwise, you're just making more and more reusable containers that are effectively single-use because, well, you're not reusing them. While I understand that it makes sense to ban plastic bags, I don't believe banning paper bags has nearly any positive impact on the environment.

panick21_ 4y ago
At least where I live the delivery guy takes the paper bags back and also takes the aluminum cold bags. But that is Switzerland.
- mindslight 4y ago
  It's almost like there is a severe logical flaw in the common USian approach of just banning singular things, and then hoping that "the market" will fill in a constructive solution.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    In my case it is 'the market'. Its a private company and there is no mandate not to use plastic or do any of the things they do.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      Still, that's not solely "the market". The values of the person managing the company and the perceived values of their customers (societal values) have informed that decision. If it's true that there really are no disposable bag regulations in Switzerland, then the much different outcome under the similar regulations also supports my point. If New Jersey thinks it has a problem where bags need to be reused more, then it would make sense to spell that out in law and nudge towards the overall desired solution (more reuse) rather than simply banning "disposable" (ie cheaply made) bags and hoping that people will automatically reuse more resource-costly ones.
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        > The values of the person managing the company and the perceived values of their customers (societal values) have informed that decision. That is literally what 'the market' always means.
bko 4y ago
It's obvious that this law is not good for the environment, consumers or grocers and is deeply unpopular. Which begs the question, where are these laws coming from? They don't even bother making simple exceptions for practicality. It's terrifying not knowing the underlying forces that are causing such a perversion to democracy.
- hirundo 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling
  - bko 4y ago
    Who are you signaling to? People who care for the environment likely know how stupid it is that they have to spend a few extra bucks when they forget their bags and have to buy thick plastic bags they'll throw away. I've never met anyone in real life that thinks this is a good idea, regardless of their politics.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      People who care for the environment enough to know how this stuff works are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of mostly uninterested people who wanna look like they care or think they care (because it's fashionable to do so) and can be hoodwinked into thinking that banning paper or plastic bags is anything but a feel-good measure targeted at getting their votes.
    - moate 4y ago
      Hello, it's me, the person you've never met in real life! I'm real, and I live in New Jersey, and I'm super in favor of this law (paper bag warts and all) You're right, in the short term a law banning plastic single use bags likely results in an increase in the number of multi-use bags people buy because they forgot. How long do you expect this cycle to go on for? I'm going to imagine it's "a few months" for most people, before you start leaving a couple bags in the back seat of your car. People are pretty clever and adaptable. It's akin to saying that we need to ban new calendar years because everyone writes the old calendar year for a few days in January. It seems pretty reasonable that people can and will, broadly speaking, remember their shopping bags. The bottom line is that the tragedy of the commons is in full effect when it comes to plastic generally, and plastic bags specifically. We got addicted to them, and they're terrible. I'm going to write this one more time: We got addicted to them and they're terrible. Short term financial gains for long term environmental pains. We should have never switched from paper bags, but plastic solved a lot of problems, and nobody seemed to notice or care about the waste issue. This law itself may not be "fixing" the issue entirely, but it's forcing consumer change and that pain alone might helpful in solving the issues long term by forcing people to think about the topic.

panick21_ 4y ago

At least where I live the delivery guy takes the paper bags back and also takes the aluminum cold bags. But that is Switzerland.

mindslight 4y ago
It's almost like there is a severe logical flaw in the common USian approach of just banning singular things, and then hoping that "the market" will fill in a constructive solution.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  In my case it is 'the market'. Its a private company and there is no mandate not to use plastic or do any of the things they do.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    Still, that's not solely "the market". The values of the person managing the company and the perceived values of their customers (societal values) have informed that decision. If it's true that there really are no disposable bag regulations in Switzerland, then the much different outcome under the similar regulations also supports my point. If New Jersey thinks it has a problem where bags need to be reused more, then it would make sense to spell that out in law and nudge towards the overall desired solution (more reuse) rather than simply banning "disposable" (ie cheaply made) bags and hoping that people will automatically reuse more resource-costly ones.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      > The values of the person managing the company and the perceived values of their customers (societal values) have informed that decision. That is literally what 'the market' always means.

bko 4y ago

It's obvious that this law is not good for the environment, consumers or grocers and is deeply unpopular. Which begs the question, where are these laws coming from? They don't even bother making simple exceptions for practicality. It's terrifying not knowing the underlying forces that are causing such a perversion to democracy.

hirundo 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling
- bko 4y ago
  Who are you signaling to? People who care for the environment likely know how stupid it is that they have to spend a few extra bucks when they forget their bags and have to buy thick plastic bags they'll throw away. I've never met anyone in real life that thinks this is a good idea, regardless of their politics.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    People who care for the environment enough to know how this stuff works are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of mostly uninterested people who wanna look like they care or think they care (because it's fashionable to do so) and can be hoodwinked into thinking that banning paper or plastic bags is anything but a feel-good measure targeted at getting their votes.
  - moate 4y ago
    Hello, it's me, the person you've never met in real life! I'm real, and I live in New Jersey, and I'm super in favor of this law (paper bag warts and all) You're right, in the short term a law banning plastic single use bags likely results in an increase in the number of multi-use bags people buy because they forgot. How long do you expect this cycle to go on for? I'm going to imagine it's "a few months" for most people, before you start leaving a couple bags in the back seat of your car. People are pretty clever and adaptable. It's akin to saying that we need to ban new calendar years because everyone writes the old calendar year for a few days in January. It seems pretty reasonable that people can and will, broadly speaking, remember their shopping bags. The bottom line is that the tragedy of the commons is in full effect when it comes to plastic generally, and plastic bags specifically. We got addicted to them, and they're terrible. I'm going to write this one more time: We got addicted to them and they're terrible. Short term financial gains for long term environmental pains. We should have never switched from paper bags, but plastic solved a lot of problems, and nobody seemed to notice or care about the waste issue. This law itself may not be "fixing" the issue entirely, but it's forcing consumer change and that pain alone might helpful in solving the issues long term by forcing people to think about the topic.