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We were naked, starving hunter-gatherers once. Hyenas preyed on us. We struggled to find wild plants and animals to eat to survive. The ecosystem could support

We were naked, starving hunter-gatherers once. Hyenas preyed on us. We struggled to find wild plants and animals to eat to survive. The ecosystem could support only a few of us, only so many food-plants could grow in such and such an area. Then, we learned to grow crops. Then, we learned to control and even eradicate pests to our crops. We bred the plants and animals to suit our needs and wants, to make not just more food but tastier food. We can, we have, and we will continue to transcend "the ecosystem" when it suits us. We will bend it not just to our needs, but to our desires. We will have dominion over it, and we will have delicious sweet corn on the cob instead of bitter grass seed, and we won't share it with the locusts and crop viruses.

mrpopo 4y ago
[flagged]
myshpa 4y ago
Can we transcend the ecosystem ad infinitum? > We were naked, starving hunter-gatherers once. Hyenas preyed on us. We struggled to find wild plants and animals to eat to survive. Until we killed all mammoths and almost all of megafauna. > The ecosystem could support only a few of us, only so many food-plants could grow in such and such an area. > Then, we learned to grow crops. And burned out large swaths of land for grazing land, maybe created the deserts of today with fire, deforestation & overgrazing. What happens when we cut down the last tree standing and plant the last piece of land with corn? We already have more land for meat/dairy production, than we have forests? [0] > Then, we learned to control and even eradicate pests to our crops. What happens when we kill the last 20% remaining bugs remaining in the world? How many more percent can we exterminate with our "control" of its population before some critical processes start failing? [1] > we will continue to transcend "the ecosystem" when it suits us. We will bend it not just to our needs, but to our desires. We will have dominion over it, and we will have delicious sweet corn on the cob instead of bitter grass seed, and we won't share it with the locusts and crop viruses What happens when we fish out beyond the critical mass of fish out of oceans, that only thing living there will be jellyfish (90% of sharks already gone because of by-kill and overfishing) [2] How many wild animals can we replace with farm animals until we throw the nature out of balance too much (98% of biomass to 4% in biomass in last 100 years)? [3] How many forests can we cut down until it rains only in coastal areas, thus turning the continents into deserts? [4] Welcome to the anthropocene [5], current geological epoch dating from the commencement of significant human impact on Earth's geology and ecosystems, including, but not limited to, anthropogenic climate change. We already have our dominion over nature. But we don't handle that responsibility well. And as you're the one talking about dominion, I have to point you to the [6]. Enjoy (engorge of) our superiority. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-graphic-1536x971.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-g... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_in_insect_populations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_in_insect_populations [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaspiracy [3] https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/ [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene [6] https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch
- PostOnce 4y ago
  Can we transcend the ecosystem in perpetuity? No one knows. Can we try? Yes. Should we? I think so. We won't pave all the forests. We won't kill all the bugs. We won't net all the fish. Partially because of hysterical people such as yourself, which is sometimes useful, and partially because of cold-thinking people such as myself, which is also sometimes useful. For example, more than a few countries protect more than a quarter of their land. You've heard of national parks, I'm sure. Where I live, 32% of the country is protected, and of course, not all unprotected land has been paved. The fisheries, too, are protected to varying extents, and so we farm fish in sea-pens and ponds inland. There's work still to do to rebuild the fisheries to their former glory, but it's not being ignored and pillaged as you imply. The fisheries are doing well and improving here and elsewhere, and fish is relatively affordable for hungry human beings. What we did 100 years ago, we have learned from, and stopped, we won't clearcut the rest of the old-growth, in fact we have replanted, not just pine, but also hardwoods, even some very slow growing ones, and we hope that in a millenium (it takes a while to grow), we will have more of our old forests back. Not much furniture is made of hardwoods now, and not many farmers in the developed world slash and burn. We already have made great strides toward making our dominion stable; perhaps even a net benefit. Pine farms sequester a lot of carbon. Keep in mind that there is no such thing as the "undeveloped" world, only the "developing" world, so they'll get there eventually too. We can and should have it all. I take it that you personally do not live in the wild forests alone and naked? You also partake of this glorious civilization we have built? Why? Because it's better. They cut down trees to build your house, and I think you'll agree that it was a good idea so that you don't have to live in the rain. We don't have to pave it all, but we do have to pave some of it. I will not divest myself of sympathy for the hungry men, women, and children of the world because a sanctimonious actor who can spend $1000 on every meal insists that his ideology is superior to mine. Sanctimony is never convincing. Nevertheless, all the meat here is grass-fed, and all the cows look happy. I see them when I'm driving around. They hang out in lush meadows and on hillsides. In fact, where I work, there are quite a few grassy hills that do nothing, so they graze cows on them part of the year. It's nice to see them trampling around and playing while I write machine control code. Those cows are going to die one day anyway, we may as well humanely make meat of them and stay strong and healthy so we can build a more beautiful, prosperous, peaceful world. In closing, I will say that I know the above is a little optimistic, but a little optimism is called for to move us forward. We need not depress all of the kids who will build our glorious future with a gnashing of teeth about the wrongs of the past, with claims of defeat, but to motivate them with possibility. We can do better, sure, and we are trying. I believe we will succeed. We will have our beautiful, prosperous, peaceful world. We already have it on a good portion of this earth. I'm going to go outside and enjoy some of it now.

mrpopo 4y ago

[flagged]

myshpa 4y ago

Can we transcend the ecosystem ad infinitum? > We were naked, starving hunter-gatherers once. Hyenas preyed on us. We struggled to find wild plants and animals to eat to survive. Until we killed all mammoths and almost all of megafauna. > The ecosystem could support only a few of us, only so many food-plants could grow in such and such an area. > Then, we learned to grow crops. And burned out large swaths of land for grazing land, maybe created the deserts of today with fire, deforestation & overgrazing. What happens when we cut down the last tree standing and plant the last piece of land with corn? We already have more land for meat/dairy production, than we have forests? [0] > Then, we learned to control and even eradicate pests to our crops. What happens when we kill the last 20% remaining bugs remaining in the world? How many more percent can we exterminate with our "control" of its population before some critical processes start failing? [1] > we will continue to transcend "the ecosystem" when it suits us. We will bend it not just to our needs, but to our desires. We will have dominion over it, and we will have delicious sweet corn on the cob instead of bitter grass seed, and we won't share it with the locusts and crop viruses What happens when we fish out beyond the critical mass of fish out of oceans, that only thing living there will be jellyfish (90% of sharks already gone because of by-kill and overfishing) [2] How many wild animals can we replace with farm animals until we throw the nature out of balance too much (98% of biomass to 4% in biomass in last 100 years)? [3] How many forests can we cut down until it rains only in coastal areas, thus turning the continents into deserts? [4] Welcome to the anthropocene [5], current geological epoch dating from the commencement of significant human impact on Earth's geology and ecosystems, including, but not limited to, anthropogenic climate change. We already have our dominion over nature. But we don't handle that responsibility well. And as you're the one talking about dominion, I have to point you to the [6]. Enjoy (engorge of) our superiority. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-graphic-1536x971.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-g... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_in_insect_populations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_in_insect_populations [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaspiracy [3] https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/ [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKL40aBg-7E [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene [6] https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch

PostOnce 4y ago
Can we transcend the ecosystem in perpetuity? No one knows. Can we try? Yes. Should we? I think so. We won't pave all the forests. We won't kill all the bugs. We won't net all the fish. Partially because of hysterical people such as yourself, which is sometimes useful, and partially because of cold-thinking people such as myself, which is also sometimes useful. For example, more than a few countries protect more than a quarter of their land. You've heard of national parks, I'm sure. Where I live, 32% of the country is protected, and of course, not all unprotected land has been paved. The fisheries, too, are protected to varying extents, and so we farm fish in sea-pens and ponds inland. There's work still to do to rebuild the fisheries to their former glory, but it's not being ignored and pillaged as you imply. The fisheries are doing well and improving here and elsewhere, and fish is relatively affordable for hungry human beings. What we did 100 years ago, we have learned from, and stopped, we won't clearcut the rest of the old-growth, in fact we have replanted, not just pine, but also hardwoods, even some very slow growing ones, and we hope that in a millenium (it takes a while to grow), we will have more of our old forests back. Not much furniture is made of hardwoods now, and not many farmers in the developed world slash and burn. We already have made great strides toward making our dominion stable; perhaps even a net benefit. Pine farms sequester a lot of carbon. Keep in mind that there is no such thing as the "undeveloped" world, only the "developing" world, so they'll get there eventually too. We can and should have it all. I take it that you personally do not live in the wild forests alone and naked? You also partake of this glorious civilization we have built? Why? Because it's better. They cut down trees to build your house, and I think you'll agree that it was a good idea so that you don't have to live in the rain. We don't have to pave it all, but we do have to pave some of it. I will not divest myself of sympathy for the hungry men, women, and children of the world because a sanctimonious actor who can spend $1000 on every meal insists that his ideology is superior to mine. Sanctimony is never convincing. Nevertheless, all the meat here is grass-fed, and all the cows look happy. I see them when I'm driving around. They hang out in lush meadows and on hillsides. In fact, where I work, there are quite a few grassy hills that do nothing, so they graze cows on them part of the year. It's nice to see them trampling around and playing while I write machine control code. Those cows are going to die one day anyway, we may as well humanely make meat of them and stay strong and healthy so we can build a more beautiful, prosperous, peaceful world. In closing, I will say that I know the above is a little optimistic, but a little optimism is called for to move us forward. We need not depress all of the kids who will build our glorious future with a gnashing of teeth about the wrongs of the past, with claims of defeat, but to motivate them with possibility. We can do better, sure, and we are trying. I believe we will succeed. We will have our beautiful, prosperous, peaceful world. We already have it on a good portion of this earth. I'm going to go outside and enjoy some of it now.