10 ms·

Resistive heating will generally be less efficient than heat pumps, although potentially Siberia is cold enough to mitigate that?

wccrawford 4y ago
I couldn't actually find anything about this in a search, but I think the point is that they're already using the GPUs for something else, and heating their kitchen with the excess heat just makes sense at that point. The only thing I did find was that apparently Russians are taking the components from kitchen appliances to use for other things, which seems entirely unrelated.
- InitialBP 4y ago
  This isn't really a "practical use for blockchain tech". Rather it's just a positive way to use the side-effect that blockchain tech requires computing components that generate a lot of heat. Ultimately the heat output has nothing to do with how the tech is used (like bitcoin). If Bitcoin (or other cryptocurrencies) stopped holding value people wouldn't heat their homes like this because it would cost more than traditional heating methods (as someone pointed out above about heat pumps.)
daeken 4y ago
I've been doing a lot of ML training, particularly when my office is cold. Kills two birds with one stone.
bluGill 4y ago
But with bitcoin mining your heat pays for itself, while if you use a heat pump you have to buy power to run the heat pump. So while heat pumps are more energy effient, bitcoin miners are far more economically efficient.
- stouset 4y ago
  This is only true if the value of the Bitcoin you mine is higher than the difference in cost between buying and operating a heat pump and buying and operating a mining rig.
  - stickfigure 4y ago
    Heat pumps are not cheap, $10-$15k installed for a small one.
    - stefanfisk 4y ago
      the one in my cabin cost me $800 including installation.
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      Neither are GPUs that are run 24/7 at full speed
    - pvarangot 4y ago
      A split AC unit that can also run backwards is less than 1000 and basically a heat pump. Not all split units that heat will do that, but a bunch do.
      - stickfigure 4y ago
        Are you talking about something that fits in a window and warms a single room? I recently replaced the 3 ton hvac unit on my small 1500 sq ft single family home with a heat pump and all the bids were in that range.
        pvarangot 4y ago
        Yeah single room. There's dual room splits that run a bigger compressor with two heads too. They are usually way cheaper than bigger units even when you account how much juice they eat up but you should do your own math because it depends on the house and the setup. Also if you want to control every single room including bathrooms and walk in closets it gets tricky.
- bouncycastle 4y ago
  For bitcoin mining to pay for itself, you need to leave it running to the max 24/7. Each miner is a noisy ~3000w machine. So that's a 3000w heater. You would normally turn down the heater during the day, but if you turn off your miner during the day, you won't break even.
  - thinkmassive 4y ago
    Apparently you haven’t heard of immersion cooling. It’s essentially silent, and many people are using DIY setups to augment a heat pump or hot water heater. Commercial solutions have been in development for a few years. Here’s one example: https://www.wisemining.io/ https://www.wisemining.io/ Edit: after re-reading your comment I realize you also aren’t aware that miners can be throttled. Powering it down is not the only alternative to consuming 3kW.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  It pays for itself in dollars but what about the carbon emissions?
  - enraged_camel 4y ago
    If you live in Siberia you presumably want the planet to warm up more. ;)
    - sobkas 4y ago
      > If you live in Siberia you presumably want the planet to warm up more. ;) No you don't, when permafrost melts it causes ground to move. It is really bad for everything build on or in it. Something like houses sinking and falling apart. In some cases it cause big holes in the ground and they got even bigger over time.
      - qwytw 4y ago
        Most of Siberia does not have permafrost, though.
        sobkas 4y ago
        Because permafrost melting is the only negative consequences of climate change. There are no forest fires, no problems with insect due to milder winters, etc.
  - voidfunc 4y ago
    Do you really think anyone in Siberia, one if the poorest places in the world, cares about carbon emissions?
    - sobkas 4y ago
      > Do you really think anyone in Siberia, one if the poorest places in the world, cares about carbon emissions? Unfortunately they care. For now only poor face real consequences of climate change. They are to poor to mitigate its effects.
NorwegianDude 4y ago
You can still use a heat pump that takes the heat from the exhaust air to warm the fresh air. That way you can get the same amount of heat as if you were using three+ times as many graphics cards. I usually use GPUs for heating during winter as the power has to be used anyway, so why not get ethereum for it.
- delecti 4y ago
  > You can still use a heat pump that takes the heat from the exhaust air to warm the fresh air Unless I'm misunderstanding part of this proposed setup, I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. The higher efficiency of heat pumps comes from the fact that the outdoors is an effectively infinite (for the purposes of a house) source of temperature differential. You can only move as much heat as exists, so you can't use a heat pump to multiply a finite heat source.
  - NorwegianDude 4y ago
    I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand. Heat is taken for the outgoing hot air, and transferred to the fresh air coming in. So instead of hot air going out, the air going out will usually be freezing.
    - mook 4y ago
      That sounds like heat recovery ventilation; while useful, it serves a different purpose than heat pumps (which heats up enclosed spaces without the ventilation). Also HRVs normally work with whatever existing air and don't use extra heated air…
      - NorwegianDude 4y ago
        You are recovering the heat from the ventilation, yes. But you're doing so using a heat pump. Check out e.g. Nibe F750 with SAM40. I'm using the heat pump to heat water using the extracted air. That water is then used for floor heating, ventilation air heating and ofc. hot water.
orangepurple 4y ago
The Mitsubishi Mr Slim heat pumps that we install are able to warm your home in temperatures as low as -15°C and -25°C When temperatures drop below zero degrees, ice will build up on the outdoor unit of any heat pump. How the heat pump reacts to this determines how effective it will be in providing heat to your home. To remove the ice build-up the heat pump will need to go into Defrost Mode. During this time the heat pump will not be delivering heat into your home. HyperCore’s Defrost Logic has been fine-tuned to extend the period in-between defrost periods and optimise its heating performance. Mitsubishi Electric offers heat pump systems with Hyper-Heating INVERTER® (H2i®) technology which can provide up to 100 percent of heating capacity at 5° F and continue operation down to -13° F even wiThe Mitsubishi Mr Slim heat pumps that we install are able to warm your home in temperatures as low as -15°C and -25°C thout auxiliary heat. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/what-is-a-heat-pump https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/what-is-a-heat-pu... https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/materials/aircon/brochures/@HeatPumpRange.pdf https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/materials/aircon/broch...
Aunche 4y ago
Until 100% of our electricity is provided by renewables or nuclear, resistive heating is just turning converting fossil fuels into heat, which we convert into electricity, which we convert back into heat. It would be more efficient to just burn the fossil fuels on site.
- pimlottc 4y ago
  You’re ignoring heat pump technology, which can result in greater overall efficiency than converting energy directly to heat.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    The parent comment already addresses heat pumps. I'm explaining that there is virtually 0 practical use case for using mining to heat people's homes.
    - maerF0x0 4y ago
      that assumes the use/utility of the computation is 0. We can all debate if that's true or not about cryptomining. One day we may heat our homes with distributed computing like BOINC. Consider the house that marginally has electrical resistive wall heaters (Like the bay area) and an excess of spare computers sitting around (also like the bay area) ... It's marginally better for the house nerd to leave their PCs on using BOINC than run the wall heater.
      - Aunche 4y ago
        If by mining, you mean cryptocurrency creation, the utility is effectively 0. You can achieve the same utility if a cryptocurrency simply credited all new coins to my wallet. If by mining, you mean validating transactions, then that's something you have to do all year round, even if it's warm. That makes about as much sense as asking VISA to send me a rack that does computations for them only when my home is under 20 C.
        4y ago

wccrawford 4y ago

I couldn't actually find anything about this in a search, but I think the point is that they're already using the GPUs for something else, and heating their kitchen with the excess heat just makes sense at that point. The only thing I did find was that apparently Russians are taking the components from kitchen appliances to use for other things, which seems entirely unrelated.

InitialBP 4y ago
This isn't really a "practical use for blockchain tech". Rather it's just a positive way to use the side-effect that blockchain tech requires computing components that generate a lot of heat. Ultimately the heat output has nothing to do with how the tech is used (like bitcoin). If Bitcoin (or other cryptocurrencies) stopped holding value people wouldn't heat their homes like this because it would cost more than traditional heating methods (as someone pointed out above about heat pumps.)

daeken 4y ago

I've been doing a lot of ML training, particularly when my office is cold. Kills two birds with one stone.

bluGill 4y ago

But with bitcoin mining your heat pays for itself, while if you use a heat pump you have to buy power to run the heat pump. So while heat pumps are more energy effient, bitcoin miners are far more economically efficient.

stouset 4y ago
This is only true if the value of the Bitcoin you mine is higher than the difference in cost between buying and operating a heat pump and buying and operating a mining rig.
- stickfigure 4y ago
  Heat pumps are not cheap, $10-$15k installed for a small one.
  - stefanfisk 4y ago
    the one in my cabin cost me $800 including installation.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    Neither are GPUs that are run 24/7 at full speed
  - pvarangot 4y ago
    A split AC unit that can also run backwards is less than 1000 and basically a heat pump. Not all split units that heat will do that, but a bunch do.
    - stickfigure 4y ago
      Are you talking about something that fits in a window and warms a single room? I recently replaced the 3 ton hvac unit on my small 1500 sq ft single family home with a heat pump and all the bids were in that range.
      - pvarangot 4y ago
        Yeah single room. There's dual room splits that run a bigger compressor with two heads too. They are usually way cheaper than bigger units even when you account how much juice they eat up but you should do your own math because it depends on the house and the setup. Also if you want to control every single room including bathrooms and walk in closets it gets tricky.
bouncycastle 4y ago
For bitcoin mining to pay for itself, you need to leave it running to the max 24/7. Each miner is a noisy ~3000w machine. So that's a 3000w heater. You would normally turn down the heater during the day, but if you turn off your miner during the day, you won't break even.
- thinkmassive 4y ago
  Apparently you haven’t heard of immersion cooling. It’s essentially silent, and many people are using DIY setups to augment a heat pump or hot water heater. Commercial solutions have been in development for a few years. Here’s one example: https://www.wisemining.io/ https://www.wisemining.io/ Edit: after re-reading your comment I realize you also aren’t aware that miners can be throttled. Powering it down is not the only alternative to consuming 3kW.
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
It pays for itself in dollars but what about the carbon emissions?
- enraged_camel 4y ago
  If you live in Siberia you presumably want the planet to warm up more. ;)
  - sobkas 4y ago
    > If you live in Siberia you presumably want the planet to warm up more. ;) No you don't, when permafrost melts it causes ground to move. It is really bad for everything build on or in it. Something like houses sinking and falling apart. In some cases it cause big holes in the ground and they got even bigger over time.
    - qwytw 4y ago
      Most of Siberia does not have permafrost, though.
      - sobkas 4y ago
        Because permafrost melting is the only negative consequences of climate change. There are no forest fires, no problems with insect due to milder winters, etc.
- voidfunc 4y ago
  Do you really think anyone in Siberia, one if the poorest places in the world, cares about carbon emissions?
  - sobkas 4y ago
    > Do you really think anyone in Siberia, one if the poorest places in the world, cares about carbon emissions? Unfortunately they care. For now only poor face real consequences of climate change. They are to poor to mitigate its effects.

NorwegianDude 4y ago

You can still use a heat pump that takes the heat from the exhaust air to warm the fresh air. That way you can get the same amount of heat as if you were using three+ times as many graphics cards. I usually use GPUs for heating during winter as the power has to be used anyway, so why not get ethereum for it.

delecti 4y ago
> You can still use a heat pump that takes the heat from the exhaust air to warm the fresh air Unless I'm misunderstanding part of this proposed setup, I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. The higher efficiency of heat pumps comes from the fact that the outdoors is an effectively infinite (for the purposes of a house) source of temperature differential. You can only move as much heat as exists, so you can't use a heat pump to multiply a finite heat source.
- NorwegianDude 4y ago
  I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand. Heat is taken for the outgoing hot air, and transferred to the fresh air coming in. So instead of hot air going out, the air going out will usually be freezing.
  - mook 4y ago
    That sounds like heat recovery ventilation; while useful, it serves a different purpose than heat pumps (which heats up enclosed spaces without the ventilation). Also HRVs normally work with whatever existing air and don't use extra heated air…
    - NorwegianDude 4y ago
      You are recovering the heat from the ventilation, yes. But you're doing so using a heat pump. Check out e.g. Nibe F750 with SAM40. I'm using the heat pump to heat water using the extracted air. That water is then used for floor heating, ventilation air heating and ofc. hot water.

orangepurple 4y ago

The Mitsubishi Mr Slim heat pumps that we install are able to warm your home in temperatures as low as -15°C and -25°C When temperatures drop below zero degrees, ice will build up on the outdoor unit of any heat pump. How the heat pump reacts to this determines how effective it will be in providing heat to your home. To remove the ice build-up the heat pump will need to go into Defrost Mode. During this time the heat pump will not be delivering heat into your home. HyperCore’s Defrost Logic has been fine-tuned to extend the period in-between defrost periods and optimise its heating performance. Mitsubishi Electric offers heat pump systems with Hyper-Heating INVERTER® (H2i®) technology which can provide up to 100 percent of heating capacity at 5° F and continue operation down to -13° F even wiThe Mitsubishi Mr Slim heat pumps that we install are able to warm your home in temperatures as low as -15°C and -25°C thout auxiliary heat. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/what-is-a-heat-pump https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/articles/what-is-a-heat-pu... https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/materials/aircon/brochures/@HeatPumpRange.pdf https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/materials/aircon/broch...

Aunche 4y ago

Until 100% of our electricity is provided by renewables or nuclear, resistive heating is just turning converting fossil fuels into heat, which we convert into electricity, which we convert back into heat. It would be more efficient to just burn the fossil fuels on site.

pimlottc 4y ago
You’re ignoring heat pump technology, which can result in greater overall efficiency than converting energy directly to heat.
- Aunche 4y ago
  The parent comment already addresses heat pumps. I'm explaining that there is virtually 0 practical use case for using mining to heat people's homes.
  - maerF0x0 4y ago
    that assumes the use/utility of the computation is 0. We can all debate if that's true or not about cryptomining. One day we may heat our homes with distributed computing like BOINC. Consider the house that marginally has electrical resistive wall heaters (Like the bay area) and an excess of spare computers sitting around (also like the bay area) ... It's marginally better for the house nerd to leave their PCs on using BOINC than run the wall heater.
    - Aunche 4y ago
      If by mining, you mean cryptocurrency creation, the utility is effectively 0. You can achieve the same utility if a cryptocurrency simply credited all new coins to my wallet. If by mining, you mean validating transactions, then that's something you have to do all year round, even if it's warm. That makes about as much sense as asking VISA to send me a rack that does computations for them only when my home is under 20 C.
      - 4y ago