6 ms·

Hierarchical notetakers/outliners are becoming a new data structure for end users, specialized in knowledge management. A kind of generalized, expandable spread

Hierarchical notetakers/outliners are becoming a new data structure for end users, specialized in knowledge management. A kind of generalized, expandable spreadsheet. I expect these tools to include more and more tools for automation based on a reactive programming style (more suited to non-programmers), expanding its function as a warehouse of ideas into a more active role for user-created applications. The NOCODE camp is growing from its VB6-like visual-style roots into environments that look more like an IDE in the style of the browser's "Inspect" window. The key development that I miss is that of reifying query results, allowing the user to use the data generated by a search as an object in itself. I even have a name for that reified object - a wit would be a collection of data compiled with a common criteria (representing a minimum unit of meaning, is a wordplay on bit being the minimum unit of knowledge), similar to a spreadsheet range. When tools like Obsidian or Logseq start allowing the user to use query results as first-class data, I predict that we will see a revolution in end-user process automation.

qwertyzxcvmnbv 4y ago
Check out https://lepiter.io/feenk/introducing-lepiter--knowledge-management--e2p6apqsz5npq7m4xte0kkywn/ https://lepiter.io/feenk/introducing-lepiter--knowledge-mana...
- TuringTest 4y ago
  Where has this tool been my whole life? :P Thanks for the link, I didn't know that one. Yes, this https://youtu.be/Pot9GnHFOVU https://youtu.be/Pot9GnHFOVU is the kind of programmable system I'm talking about, creating behavior on top of your stored content with methods specific to the particular collections of data already in your system, and ideally with minimal syntax for transferring data among the different tools.
  - qwertyzxcvmnbv 4y ago
    Super happy this landed, I had the same kind of reaction as you :-)
greggsy 4y ago
I’m using obsidian, but I’d move back to OneNote (or even Apple Notes) if it offered inclusions and more flexible tag management and reporting. I feel like MS could do that somewhere down the line.
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Can't stand the idea of my personal notes being in the form of a proprietary format though. That's the key advantage for me.
slightwinder 4y ago
> Hierarchical notetakers/outliners are becoming a new data structure for end users, specialized in knowledge management. Outliners are used in this area for decades. What we have now is just a new hype-cycle, with new apps, new technologies and a new mix of features. > When tools like Obsidian or Logseq start allowing the user to use query results as first-class data, I predict that we will see a revolution in end-user process automation. So, SQL?
- quaunaut 4y ago
  > Outliners are used in this area for decades. What we have now is just a new hype-cycle, with new apps, new technologies and a new mix of features. To say that what we have now is nothing but a new hype cycle while the Zettelkasten method was only widely exposed within the last couple of decades, and was not utilized in the design of past Outliners, shows you don't really understand what's actually changed.
  - slightwinder 4y ago
    Zettelkasten is nothing new and just hype. Only shows that you just don't know this space, and it's history. Obviously there is improvement, but it's not in methods or data-structures, it's with technology and implementations. We are now at the point where we can move fast with implementations and glue much more features together.
    - quaunaut 4y ago
      Then please, illuminate me. Because the implications of Luhmann's use of the Zettelkasten weren't widely available till the last decade, and weren't available in software until the same period. So what exactly don't I know? Genuinely.
      - slightwinder 4y ago
        Luhmann methods are known since the 80s, at least in europe. And I think I saw the first digital implementation around 2006 or 2008. Looking it up, the first(?) Digital Zettelkasten after Luhmann method was in 2004 already at version 2.5, so it's likely quite older. But dates are not important here. Luhmanns method is simply not that special, nor unique. Many scientists and artist used similar methods and tools. He is mostly just replicating what was common at the time, but with some twist. And in the 80s or 90s is would be really awesome, probably even somewhat groundbreaking. But today? It's just another graph-system which you find in wikis or hypertext for decades now. And most people are not even using the benefits of his number-system, just calling everything zettelkasten which is just a wiki otherwise, leaving even less of his originality. Though, in digital space it make less sense anyway, so not a big lose. But for whatever reason, there now this hype from people who seem to have know knowledge about those space or it's history, or even really understand the terms, thinking Luhmanns method is called Zettelkasten...
ryanjamurphy 4y ago
I agree with your issue of reification and I like the concept of a "wit." I think we're getting there, too. See, for instance, https://github.com/nothingislost/obsidian-query-control https://github.com/nothingislost/obsidian-query-control — it renders the results of an embedded Obsidian query and you can interact with checkboxes. Likewise, a collaboration between dataview and the Task Collector plugin might let us manipulate different task statuses from a dataview query: https://github.com/ebullient/obsidian-task-collector/issues/43 https://github.com/ebullient/obsidian-task-collector/issues/... Exciting times!
- TuringTest 4y ago
  > I agree with your issue of reification and I like the concept of a "wit." Thanks! I had it as a vague idea for several years, though it has been getting a lot more concrete as I've seen new tools adopting similar approaches - but without any of them taking the final step of converting a search result collection into a user-accessible object ready for direct manipulation. And now that I see tools adopting that style of data management, the concept allows me to see the commonalities among tools with quite different approaches - be it tabular Nocode storage like Airtable or outliners like Roam, Workflowy and the like. Whenever the tool returns a collection from a data gathering process, I see a wit that should be able to be extracted and further processed by the user. BTW, the main difference between a query result and a wit is that you can store its items in the same structure as the rest of your content in the outliner, and send them to a new process (like spreadsheet cells, but with hierarchical data). Usually, query results are presented through a different interface than the rest of content, but a 'wit' should be homoiconic like Lisp. (Errata to my grandparent post: a 'bit' is a "minimum unit of data", of course, not of knowledge). > Exciting times! You bet! :-D

qwertyzxcvmnbv 4y ago

Check out https://lepiter.io/feenk/introducing-lepiter--knowledge-management--e2p6apqsz5npq7m4xte0kkywn/ https://lepiter.io/feenk/introducing-lepiter--knowledge-mana...

TuringTest 4y ago
Where has this tool been my whole life? :P Thanks for the link, I didn't know that one. Yes, this https://youtu.be/Pot9GnHFOVU https://youtu.be/Pot9GnHFOVU is the kind of programmable system I'm talking about, creating behavior on top of your stored content with methods specific to the particular collections of data already in your system, and ideally with minimal syntax for transferring data among the different tools.
- qwertyzxcvmnbv 4y ago
  Super happy this landed, I had the same kind of reaction as you :-)

greggsy 4y ago

I’m using obsidian, but I’d move back to OneNote (or even Apple Notes) if it offered inclusions and more flexible tag management and reporting. I feel like MS could do that somewhere down the line.

stjohnswarts 4y ago
Can't stand the idea of my personal notes being in the form of a proprietary format though. That's the key advantage for me.

slightwinder 4y ago

> Hierarchical notetakers/outliners are becoming a new data structure for end users, specialized in knowledge management. Outliners are used in this area for decades. What we have now is just a new hype-cycle, with new apps, new technologies and a new mix of features. > When tools like Obsidian or Logseq start allowing the user to use query results as first-class data, I predict that we will see a revolution in end-user process automation. So, SQL?

quaunaut 4y ago
> Outliners are used in this area for decades. What we have now is just a new hype-cycle, with new apps, new technologies and a new mix of features. To say that what we have now is nothing but a new hype cycle while the Zettelkasten method was only widely exposed within the last couple of decades, and was not utilized in the design of past Outliners, shows you don't really understand what's actually changed.
- slightwinder 4y ago
  Zettelkasten is nothing new and just hype. Only shows that you just don't know this space, and it's history. Obviously there is improvement, but it's not in methods or data-structures, it's with technology and implementations. We are now at the point where we can move fast with implementations and glue much more features together.
  - quaunaut 4y ago
    Then please, illuminate me. Because the implications of Luhmann's use of the Zettelkasten weren't widely available till the last decade, and weren't available in software until the same period. So what exactly don't I know? Genuinely.
    - slightwinder 4y ago
      Luhmann methods are known since the 80s, at least in europe. And I think I saw the first digital implementation around 2006 or 2008. Looking it up, the first(?) Digital Zettelkasten after Luhmann method was in 2004 already at version 2.5, so it's likely quite older. But dates are not important here. Luhmanns method is simply not that special, nor unique. Many scientists and artist used similar methods and tools. He is mostly just replicating what was common at the time, but with some twist. And in the 80s or 90s is would be really awesome, probably even somewhat groundbreaking. But today? It's just another graph-system which you find in wikis or hypertext for decades now. And most people are not even using the benefits of his number-system, just calling everything zettelkasten which is just a wiki otherwise, leaving even less of his originality. Though, in digital space it make less sense anyway, so not a big lose. But for whatever reason, there now this hype from people who seem to have know knowledge about those space or it's history, or even really understand the terms, thinking Luhmanns method is called Zettelkasten...

ryanjamurphy 4y ago

I agree with your issue of reification and I like the concept of a "wit." I think we're getting there, too. See, for instance, https://github.com/nothingislost/obsidian-query-control https://github.com/nothingislost/obsidian-query-control — it renders the results of an embedded Obsidian query and you can interact with checkboxes. Likewise, a collaboration between dataview and the Task Collector plugin might let us manipulate different task statuses from a dataview query: https://github.com/ebullient/obsidian-task-collector/issues/43 https://github.com/ebullient/obsidian-task-collector/issues/... Exciting times!

TuringTest 4y ago
> I agree with your issue of reification and I like the concept of a "wit." Thanks! I had it as a vague idea for several years, though it has been getting a lot more concrete as I've seen new tools adopting similar approaches - but without any of them taking the final step of converting a search result collection into a user-accessible object ready for direct manipulation. And now that I see tools adopting that style of data management, the concept allows me to see the commonalities among tools with quite different approaches - be it tabular Nocode storage like Airtable or outliners like Roam, Workflowy and the like. Whenever the tool returns a collection from a data gathering process, I see a wit that should be able to be extracted and further processed by the user. BTW, the main difference between a query result and a wit is that you can store its items in the same structure as the rest of your content in the outliner, and send them to a new process (like spreadsheet cells, but with hierarchical data). Usually, query results are presented through a different interface than the rest of content, but a 'wit' should be homoiconic like Lisp. (Errata to my grandparent post: a 'bit' is a "minimum unit of data", of course, not of knowledge). > Exciting times! You bet! :-D