4 ms·

Capitalism also results in famine, shortages, and genocides, yet you don't criticize it for that.

Veen 4y ago
> Capitalism also results in famine Capitalist societies experience famine, but that's not the same as causing famine, something which has happened numerous times in communist societies: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921–1922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921–1922 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  All of these famines are exeprienced in communist countries, but not caused by communism. IIRC those were mostly direct or indirect consequences of wars and economic sanctions that capitalist countries lead against communist countries. Compare that with the following famines that were both experienced and caused by capitalism: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India If you look at the full list of famines, you'll find the difference between capitalism and communism astonishing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine
  - Veen 4y ago
    The communist famines were primarily caused by forced collectivization which disrupted the agriculture industry, incompetent centralized administration, and poor economic planning. They were literally caused by communist policies. The Great Potato famine was caused by potato blight and and the Indian Famine was caused by drought.
    - dontlaugh 4y ago
      Conveniently, you're ignoring both the periodic environmental famine conditions experienced in both Eastern Europe and China for centuries and the British profit-making policies that caused famine in both Ireland and India.
      - Veen 4y ago
        Discussing this topic with tankies is a waste of time, so I'll just refer you to my previous comments.
        tut-urut-utut 4y ago
        > Discussing this topic with tankies is a waste of time I had to search for “tankie”. Thanks for introducing a new word for me. For people who don't know what “tankie” is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie However, please keep in mind that not everyone who is not a priori against communism can be classified as hard core Stalinist. One should be able to criticize both systems, and wish a better one, without being labelled from one side as “tankie” and from the other side as “imperialistic capitalistic pig”, or another insult of the day.
        dontlaugh 4y ago
        [flagged]
    - wbsss4412 4y ago
      The Russian famine in the early 1920s was also caused by crop failures in the way that the potato famine was caused by blight. In both cases, government actions were what drove crop failures to become widespread famines.
ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
I'm not uncritical of capitalism, especially as we practice it with high amounts of monopolization over sectors and regulatory capture by conglomerates. But communism as historically demonstrated will not solve our problems, and will likely make them worse. Which historical communist country would you like to live in?
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  > Which historical communist country would you like to live in? None of the historically available communist countries would be my choice of living. In the same way, I would not be eager to live in any of the historical early pure capitalist countries, unless I am sure I would belong to the top 1-5% percent. Good capitalism implementation borrowed quite a bit from communism/socialism, to make those systems bearable for an average citizen. Given that capitalism exists at least a hundred-year longer, I suppose there's still possibility for a nice implementation of communism to come. It took capitalism at least 150 years to get to the somewhat liveable level. I'd still rather live in a Star Trek like communist utopia/dystopia than in an Elysium like capitalist utopia/dystopia.
  - ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
    That's kind of sad, considering our parents all survived the 2nd half of the 20th century, and they probably weren't in the top 1-5%. I would be quite happy living in Western Europe or the US during the 2nd half of the 20th century. I think one's chances of living a brutishly short life would have been less than 5%.

Veen 4y ago

> Capitalism also results in famine Capitalist societies experience famine, but that's not the same as causing famine, something which has happened numerous times in communist societies: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921–1922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921–1922 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
All of these famines are exeprienced in communist countries, but not caused by communism. IIRC those were mostly direct or indirect consequences of wars and economic sanctions that capitalist countries lead against communist countries. Compare that with the following famines that were both experienced and caused by capitalism: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India If you look at the full list of famines, you'll find the difference between capitalism and communism astonishing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine
- Veen 4y ago
  The communist famines were primarily caused by forced collectivization which disrupted the agriculture industry, incompetent centralized administration, and poor economic planning. They were literally caused by communist policies. The Great Potato famine was caused by potato blight and and the Indian Famine was caused by drought.
  - dontlaugh 4y ago
    Conveniently, you're ignoring both the periodic environmental famine conditions experienced in both Eastern Europe and China for centuries and the British profit-making policies that caused famine in both Ireland and India.
    - Veen 4y ago
      Discussing this topic with tankies is a waste of time, so I'll just refer you to my previous comments.
      - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
        > Discussing this topic with tankies is a waste of time I had to search for “tankie”. Thanks for introducing a new word for me. For people who don't know what “tankie” is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie However, please keep in mind that not everyone who is not a priori against communism can be classified as hard core Stalinist. One should be able to criticize both systems, and wish a better one, without being labelled from one side as “tankie” and from the other side as “imperialistic capitalistic pig”, or another insult of the day.
        dontlaugh 4y ago
        [flagged]
  - wbsss4412 4y ago
    The Russian famine in the early 1920s was also caused by crop failures in the way that the potato famine was caused by blight. In both cases, government actions were what drove crop failures to become widespread famines.

ravel-bar-foo 4y ago

I'm not uncritical of capitalism, especially as we practice it with high amounts of monopolization over sectors and regulatory capture by conglomerates. But communism as historically demonstrated will not solve our problems, and will likely make them worse. Which historical communist country would you like to live in?

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
> Which historical communist country would you like to live in? None of the historically available communist countries would be my choice of living. In the same way, I would not be eager to live in any of the historical early pure capitalist countries, unless I am sure I would belong to the top 1-5% percent. Good capitalism implementation borrowed quite a bit from communism/socialism, to make those systems bearable for an average citizen. Given that capitalism exists at least a hundred-year longer, I suppose there's still possibility for a nice implementation of communism to come. It took capitalism at least 150 years to get to the somewhat liveable level. I'd still rather live in a Star Trek like communist utopia/dystopia than in an Elysium like capitalist utopia/dystopia.
- ravel-bar-foo 4y ago
  That's kind of sad, considering our parents all survived the 2nd half of the 20th century, and they probably weren't in the top 1-5%. I would be quite happy living in Western Europe or the US during the 2nd half of the 20th century. I think one's chances of living a brutishly short life would have been less than 5%.