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I don't really care whether fetuses are people are not. The fact is that bodily autonomy is never restricted so much, even when lives are at stake. I'm not forc

I don't really care whether fetuses are people are not. The fact is that bodily autonomy is never restricted so much, even when lives are at stake. I'm not forced to donate organs, to donate blood, or even to do something so simple as get a vaccine. Why is my bodily autonomy no longer important when the "life" at stake is inside my body? That's the crux of the debate, whether pregnant people have as much bodily autonomy as everyone else. If anti-choice people were to also concede that people should be forced to give up bodily autonomy in other areas like the ones I listed above, I would take them more seriously and we could discuss whether a fetus is a person. Until then it doesn't matter, it's just about restricting rights of others and almost always based in religious arguments and sexism.

philsnow 4y ago
> I don't really care whether fetuses are people are not. ... well, if they are, then abortion is murder, right? I don't see why you wouldn't care whether they "are people" or not. It seems crucial, at least if you think, like I do, that murder is just about the worst thing a person could do. > The fact is that bodily autonomy is never restricted so much [...] I'm not forced to donate organs, to donate blood, or even to do something so simple as get a vaccine. These are not in the same category. All of these might give another person a chance at living longer (and yes, some of them like organ donation in particular carry some risk of death for the donor). Abortion definitely takes away any possibility of living from another person. I don't buy the bodily autonomy argument. Yes, ~half the human population bears the burden of carrying children, and no, that's not fair. Everybody (men and women, of all generations) should be invested in living in a society where we don't create incentives for anybody to kill anybody else, up to and including not having sex outside of some setup/framework where any children produced will be loved and cared for. If we can't agree to something like that, then it seems like we would have to collectively accept that murder isn't all that bad.
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  > some of them like organ donation in particular carry some risk of death for the donor Just like carrying a pregnancy to term. Especially in the US which has a very high maternal mortality rate. > if they are, then abortion is murder, right? If I'm giving someone a blood transfusion because their kidneys are failing and they'll die within minutes/hours if I stop, is it murder to disconnect us? Maybe so but I should still have the right to choose. I can only recommend this video which makes the point much better than I ever could https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PAajlHbnU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PAajlHbnU > Abortion definitely takes away any possibility of living from another person. This seems to contradict your idea that a fetus is already living in the first place? And if it is already living than just like organ donation, carrying the pregnancy to term "_might_ give another person a chance at living longer" just like organ donation. Remember miscarriages are common, stillbirths are common, dying in infancy is common. Organ/blood donation is extremely comparable to being pregnant if a fetus is alive: they are alive at the grace of and only because of your body.
  - philsnow 4y ago
    > If I'm giving someone a blood transfusion because their kidneys are failing and they'll die within minutes/hours if I stop, is it murder to disconnect us? No, similar to how it's not murder to disconnect somebody in a coma from life support or other extraordinary medical means. If the person dies, it's from their loss of blood, not from you refusing/failing to give them your blood. I admit I didn't watch more than 60 seconds here and there of the video; it's almost 40 minutes long and it's late here. > This seems to contradict your idea that a fetus is already living in the first place Hm, I should have added "any longer" to clarify: "Abortion definitely takes away any possibility of living any longer from another person". > just like organ donation Organ donation is extraordinary; pregnancy is the most ordinary thing in the world.
  - spoils19 4y ago
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > I would consider myself pro-life like many others here, and I hold a similar position that even miscarriage and stillbirths should be considered murder. If a woman is pregnant they have a legal obligation to carry that baby to term (at it should be least in civilized, "Red" states). It's a widely held belief here that miscarriages are most likely due to the woman's negligence in the care of her child. The majority of pregnancy (the vast majority of you count from fertilization, as several new state laws expressly do) naturally and irreducibly end in miscarriage. Also, even if one were to grant that this was negligent (which is ridiculous) and that zygotes were deserving of the same consideration as born persons, negligent (or even reckless) homicide is generally not murder for any other victim.
      - philsnow 4y ago
        Thank you for your careful use of negligence and recklessness (vs the intentionality required for 'murder'). from GP: > > I would consider myself pro-life like many others here Just as a data point: GP/spoils19, you don't come off as pro-life the way that I am -- babies aren't the property of the State. My wife had at least two miscarriages. We both desperately wanted every one of those babies. To imply that my late wife somehow neglected the care of those fetuses would be a very, very ugly accusation.

philsnow 4y ago

> I don't really care whether fetuses are people are not. ... well, if they are, then abortion is murder, right? I don't see why you wouldn't care whether they "are people" or not. It seems crucial, at least if you think, like I do, that murder is just about the worst thing a person could do. > The fact is that bodily autonomy is never restricted so much [...] I'm not forced to donate organs, to donate blood, or even to do something so simple as get a vaccine. These are not in the same category. All of these might give another person a chance at living longer (and yes, some of them like organ donation in particular carry some risk of death for the donor). Abortion definitely takes away any possibility of living from another person. I don't buy the bodily autonomy argument. Yes, ~half the human population bears the burden of carrying children, and no, that's not fair. Everybody (men and women, of all generations) should be invested in living in a society where we don't create incentives for anybody to kill anybody else, up to and including not having sex outside of some setup/framework where any children produced will be loved and cared for. If we can't agree to something like that, then it seems like we would have to collectively accept that murder isn't all that bad.

EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
> some of them like organ donation in particular carry some risk of death for the donor Just like carrying a pregnancy to term. Especially in the US which has a very high maternal mortality rate. > if they are, then abortion is murder, right? If I'm giving someone a blood transfusion because their kidneys are failing and they'll die within minutes/hours if I stop, is it murder to disconnect us? Maybe so but I should still have the right to choose. I can only recommend this video which makes the point much better than I ever could https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PAajlHbnU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PAajlHbnU > Abortion definitely takes away any possibility of living from another person. This seems to contradict your idea that a fetus is already living in the first place? And if it is already living than just like organ donation, carrying the pregnancy to term "_might_ give another person a chance at living longer" just like organ donation. Remember miscarriages are common, stillbirths are common, dying in infancy is common. Organ/blood donation is extremely comparable to being pregnant if a fetus is alive: they are alive at the grace of and only because of your body.
- philsnow 4y ago
  > If I'm giving someone a blood transfusion because their kidneys are failing and they'll die within minutes/hours if I stop, is it murder to disconnect us? No, similar to how it's not murder to disconnect somebody in a coma from life support or other extraordinary medical means. If the person dies, it's from their loss of blood, not from you refusing/failing to give them your blood. I admit I didn't watch more than 60 seconds here and there of the video; it's almost 40 minutes long and it's late here. > This seems to contradict your idea that a fetus is already living in the first place Hm, I should have added "any longer" to clarify: "Abortion definitely takes away any possibility of living any longer from another person". > just like organ donation Organ donation is extraordinary; pregnancy is the most ordinary thing in the world.
- spoils19 4y ago
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > I would consider myself pro-life like many others here, and I hold a similar position that even miscarriage and stillbirths should be considered murder. If a woman is pregnant they have a legal obligation to carry that baby to term (at it should be least in civilized, "Red" states). It's a widely held belief here that miscarriages are most likely due to the woman's negligence in the care of her child. The majority of pregnancy (the vast majority of you count from fertilization, as several new state laws expressly do) naturally and irreducibly end in miscarriage. Also, even if one were to grant that this was negligent (which is ridiculous) and that zygotes were deserving of the same consideration as born persons, negligent (or even reckless) homicide is generally not murder for any other victim.
    - philsnow 4y ago
      Thank you for your careful use of negligence and recklessness (vs the intentionality required for 'murder'). from GP: > > I would consider myself pro-life like many others here Just as a data point: GP/spoils19, you don't come off as pro-life the way that I am -- babies aren't the property of the State. My wife had at least two miscarriages. We both desperately wanted every one of those babies. To imply that my late wife somehow neglected the care of those fetuses would be a very, very ugly accusation.