4 ms·

I'm as pro-choice as the average European, and as pro-encryption as the average libertarian. But saying that those two things are the same is ludicrous and absu

by bambax 4y ago

I'm as pro-choice as the average European, and as pro-encryption as the average libertarian. But saying that those two things are the same is ludicrous and absurd.

robonerd 4y ago
Roe vs Wade was based on a privacy argument, so finding a connection between the pro-choice position and encryption seems natural.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  The Roe v Wade meaning of "privacy" was about the ability to make intimate, personal decisions without the state interfering, which is somewhat different from (though related to) online privacy. It is pretty clear that the ability to have safer online conversations is key to exercising your ability to make intimate decisions in the modern age, so the two meanings do converge there.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Sure, I don't mean to suggest that Roe vs Wade was actually about encryption. But Roe v Wade makes the privacy angle of the pro-choice position pretty clear; that privacy between a woman and her doctor is relevant to the discussion. If privacy in that context is important, then technology which doesn't subvert that privacy is also important. The convergence of the two seems obvious; people are practically glued to their phones, carry them everywhere, use them for everything. If you care about privacy in virtually any modern context, be it abortion or just about anything else, then you have a reason to care about digital privacy.
- bambax 4y ago
  Yeah ok, but the state should respect the privacy of the individuals in all cases, not just because there are technological barriers to prevent it from violating it. Encryption is a technology; it's a tool. All tools can be broken, subverted, avoided. Privacy is a legal right. There are no physical walls high enough to prevent the state from entering my house if it chooses do to so; the only way to keep the state out of my house is by legal means -- ie, ironically, by regulations and more state, not less.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Yes, it would be best if privacy is protected by law. We should strive for that outcome, but still be prepared for less favorable outcomes.
4ad 4y ago
Not just absurd, but potentially harmful. If non-tech people are somehow led to believe that encryption is in any way controversial, that could make them want to steer away from the controversy, and away from the discussion. Plus even if they are pro-abortion, abortions are a rare and exceptional event, and this might make them think that encryption is "special" in the same way. But encryption is ubiquitous.
qsdf38100 4y ago
So? Move along? Nothing to see here? Everything is fine? I mean except this ludicrous and absurd article of course.
fzeroracer 4y ago
If abortion is made federally illegal and the state demands that your company turns over and unencrypts data/communications/medical records etc in order to find and prosecute people who had abortions. What exactly do you think will happen to those encryption laws? What do you think happens to a person's privacy?
- snickerbockers 4y ago
  Um...there's plenty of other things that are illegal that haven't led to encryption being outlawed. It's also pretty easy to make sure your company doesn't possess the ability to produce the data in unencrypted form anyways.
  - midasz 4y ago
    The ability to control a womans body is apparently deemed pretty important though so...
- daenz 4y ago
  Slippery slope fallacy
- bambax 4y ago
  Ok, but if the main argument in favor of encryption is that it allows people to break the law with impunity, it won't help.
samuel 4y ago
Thanks god someone sees it as clearly as I do. The whole article is pure madness, it even states "Law enforcement is a scourge on Americans’ personal safety". I'm sure law enforcement in the US has a lot of problems, but this is pure nonsense. I'm really concerned about what it's going on in the US because if an article like this makes into HN, it means the situations is as bad as it seems.
mellavora 4y ago
> as the average European I could agree that the connection is not immediately obvious in the EU context. However, isn't one of the strong libertarian pro-encryption arguments that encryption allows the individual to protect their liberties against the state? and, as you are pro-choice, you believe that a woman has a right to get an abortion, i.e. this is one of her personal liberties?

by bambax 4y ago

I'm as pro-choice as the average European, and as pro-encryption as the average libertarian. But saying that those two things are the same is ludicrous and absurd.

robonerd 4y ago

Roe vs Wade was based on a privacy argument, so finding a connection between the pro-choice position and encryption seems natural.

howinteresting 4y ago
The Roe v Wade meaning of "privacy" was about the ability to make intimate, personal decisions without the state interfering, which is somewhat different from (though related to) online privacy. It is pretty clear that the ability to have safer online conversations is key to exercising your ability to make intimate decisions in the modern age, so the two meanings do converge there.
- robonerd 4y ago
  Sure, I don't mean to suggest that Roe vs Wade was actually about encryption. But Roe v Wade makes the privacy angle of the pro-choice position pretty clear; that privacy between a woman and her doctor is relevant to the discussion. If privacy in that context is important, then technology which doesn't subvert that privacy is also important. The convergence of the two seems obvious; people are practically glued to their phones, carry them everywhere, use them for everything. If you care about privacy in virtually any modern context, be it abortion or just about anything else, then you have a reason to care about digital privacy.
bambax 4y ago
Yeah ok, but the state should respect the privacy of the individuals in all cases, not just because there are technological barriers to prevent it from violating it. Encryption is a technology; it's a tool. All tools can be broken, subverted, avoided. Privacy is a legal right. There are no physical walls high enough to prevent the state from entering my house if it chooses do to so; the only way to keep the state out of my house is by legal means -- ie, ironically, by regulations and more state, not less.
- robonerd 4y ago
  Yes, it would be best if privacy is protected by law. We should strive for that outcome, but still be prepared for less favorable outcomes.

4ad 4y ago

Not just absurd, but potentially harmful. If non-tech people are somehow led to believe that encryption is in any way controversial, that could make them want to steer away from the controversy, and away from the discussion. Plus even if they are pro-abortion, abortions are a rare and exceptional event, and this might make them think that encryption is "special" in the same way. But encryption is ubiquitous.

qsdf38100 4y ago

So? Move along? Nothing to see here? Everything is fine? I mean except this ludicrous and absurd article of course.

fzeroracer 4y ago

If abortion is made federally illegal and the state demands that your company turns over and unencrypts data/communications/medical records etc in order to find and prosecute people who had abortions. What exactly do you think will happen to those encryption laws? What do you think happens to a person's privacy?

snickerbockers 4y ago
Um...there's plenty of other things that are illegal that haven't led to encryption being outlawed. It's also pretty easy to make sure your company doesn't possess the ability to produce the data in unencrypted form anyways.
- midasz 4y ago
  The ability to control a womans body is apparently deemed pretty important though so...
daenz 4y ago
Slippery slope fallacy
bambax 4y ago
Ok, but if the main argument in favor of encryption is that it allows people to break the law with impunity, it won't help.

samuel 4y ago

Thanks god someone sees it as clearly as I do. The whole article is pure madness, it even states "Law enforcement is a scourge on Americans’ personal safety". I'm sure law enforcement in the US has a lot of problems, but this is pure nonsense. I'm really concerned about what it's going on in the US because if an article like this makes into HN, it means the situations is as bad as it seems.

mellavora 4y ago

> as the average European I could agree that the connection is not immediately obvious in the EU context. However, isn't one of the strong libertarian pro-encryption arguments that encryption allows the individual to protect their liberties against the state? and, as you are pro-choice, you believe that a woman has a right to get an abortion, i.e. this is one of her personal liberties?